Episode 99: Will Artificial Turf Change Golf? In Conversation with Paul Jansen

In this episode of the Top 100 Clubhouse Podcast, Paul Jansen, a golf course architect and founding member of Himalayas Golf, shares his journey and insights into the world of golf course design. He and James discuss the evolution of golf spaces, the role of artificial turf, and the importance of creating unique and engaging environments for golfers. 

Paul reflects on his experiences in various countries, the challenges faced in golf course construction, and the significance of a sense of place in design. He also shares his favourite golf courses and the stories behind them, emphasising the need for innovation and adaptation in the sport.

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Paul Jansen and Himalayas Golf
02:57 The Shift to Smaller Golf Spaces
05:41 The Role of Artificial Turf in Golf
08:56 Common Misconceptions About Artificial Turf
11:43 The Evolution of Golf Practice Spaces
14:32 The Intersection of Technology and Golf
17:30 The Future of Golf and Entertainment
20:32 Paul's Journey into Golf Course Architecture
23:22 The Influence of South Africa on Paul’s Career
26:27 Challenges in Golf Course Design
29:21 Unique Experiences in Golf Course Construction
32:30 The Importance of Sense of Place in Golf
35:30 Paul's Favourite Golf Courses
41:12 Final Thoughts and Reflections

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Paul Jansen and Himalayas Golf
• 2:54 The Shift to Smaller Golf Spaces
• 5:41 The Role of Artificial Turf in Golf
• 8:56 Common Misconceptions About Artificial Turf
• 11:56 The Evolution of Golf Practice Spaces
• 14:32 The Intersection of Technology and Golf
• 20:32 Paul's Journey into Golf Course Architecture
• 23:22 The Influence of South Africa on Paul's Career
• 26:27 Challenges in Golf Course Design
• 29:21 Unique Experiences in Golf Course Construction
• 32:30 The Importance of a Sense of Place in Golf Courses
• 35:30 Paul's Favourite Golf Courses
• 41:12 Reflecting on Paul's Career
• 56:40 Golf Courses in Africa
• 1:04:07 Final Thoughts and Reflections

Transcript

0:00:02.966,0:00:04.433
I mean the game is an amateur

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game I mean the professional

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side of it you know there are idols and heroes and

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fun to watch them play but I mean if it weren't for amateur

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golf there would be no golf

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you have to remember when you play a golf

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course and you're out there for four hours or whatever

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you're only hitting the

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you're only hitting a ball for what 15

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minutes of that so there's a lot of time to look around

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I'm Paul Jansen uh

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I'm one of the founding members of Himalayas Golf

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uh my background is in golf course architecture

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our company does just that we're design and build golf

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spaces I mean we work on big and small although um

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uh

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you know a high percentage of our work is really in the

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small spaces golf

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indoor and outdoor using grass and artificial turf

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and I've been in the big business

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now for wow almost 25 years um

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interestingly I was reading quite a bit about

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I've obviously had to do a bit of research and

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it's great to have you on to start off with and thank you

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and when did you make the pivot

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to start doing smaller form stuff

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that was when I met Dave Pals so I met Dave Pals

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back in about 2016 2017

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so one of my founding members James Wayne McDonald um

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who's based out on the on the west coast uh

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Wayne Wayne played professional golf uh

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and he was good friends with Dave Pelz David Ledbetter

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uh a few of the golfers and um and

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I'm guessing you know I'd I've been

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speaking with Wayne for some time about my travels

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to Asia I was doing quite a bit of stuff for

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art in Asia you know um

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from around about oh gosh around about 2 thousand

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eight till about 2,015

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um and he said

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um hey why don't you pop up down to Austin Texas

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or at least Dripping Springs

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which is about an hour outside of Austin

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where Dave had just built this uh this um

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backyard space on about 3 acres um and

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yeah I would say pop pop down there flew flew down met

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a Dave met his son Eddie Phelps

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who works with us now and his wife JP and uh

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began to you know

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speak speak about this this this space where he had

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seven or eight greens he had seven or eight holes

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and he had all this all this practice

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combined into the space he had lag putting zones

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and he had 1 2 3% putting zone he had wedge targets

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it was very very much practice

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driven and that's where he would bring all of his

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all of his students Phil Mickelson and Patrick Reed and

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uh you know Tom Kite

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uh the whole nine nine yards uh to very cool practice

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and it was all in our artificial turf

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and I thought wow I mean this is

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you know there's a lot of potential here

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and that was kind of the aha moment for me and

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yeah so we began

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speaking and you know developing a plan and

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I guess you know through day poles and through

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Wayne you know we had some some good business people

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you know kind of

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backing us and we create a pal's player greens and

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it's kind of grown from there so yeah you know almost

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almost 10 years ago you know we had that covid

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period where you know

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where it was somewhat quiet but um

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yeah it's been incredibly busy for us

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you know since then

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why did um

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why did they take the pros down there

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what was the reasoning

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to use well I mean Dave you know yeah well I mean Dave

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was a few few reasons um

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I think uh golf courses and golf clubs didn't have

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uh you know really good practice spaces

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for Dave to to practice certain shots

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um so that was one of them uh I guess if you take Phil

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Mickelson or Patrick Reed down to the local club

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you know there's gonna be a lot of people um you know

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inserting them and you know asking them questions

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and and what not two of the best wedge players ever

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yeah um

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you know um I know I know Dave

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Dave said said to me at at the get go he said that

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you know all these golf clubs spend so much money on practice

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spaces but

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you know they're not they're not really designed

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for practice you know you you

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you walk on them and you don't even know how to practice

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so he said he would rather create a space

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where he could practice certain shots um and um

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you know and he could do it in his bloody bathrobe

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really

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um so that's what would uh you know what would he do

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and I mean in his space uh like like I said uh

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you know
roughly about three acres he said that you could

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practice just about every shot within

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100 yards which is what you can do

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um I mean Dave was a NASA

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scientist before he was a golf pro smart guy and um

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and he had worked with

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with a number of the turf manufacturers

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because the whole space is an artificial turf

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he had worked with a number of the turf

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manufacturers to create

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um turf that was the most realistic um so he you know

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spent time and was a money on that and then

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with a son and some local guys uh who work for us uh

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down uh in Austin

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yeah they would just spent

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about 2 2 years building the backyard and um and like

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like I said you know

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kind of really built for practice so

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you might look at it from a classic

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perspective and go like

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shit that's something out of Star Wars but it's very

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very much you know a space

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where you can take your pros and you can

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you know you know play and

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and I guess train certain shots and what uh

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you've done a lot of research on

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artificial turf

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am I right in

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saying you've got a book out I've not read your book

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no the no

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uh yes no

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to be honest I do so I so I wrote wrote a book with

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uh Sinclair which are one of the biggest 4th

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manufacturers

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uh around and in fact they're the guys who did the TGL

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so at least at least you know kind of supply

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the turf for for that so OK wow

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OK so you really are one of the world's

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foremost specialists on this subject

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just so everyone knows well you know I I

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I got got lucky James

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because when I met Dave Pals

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he had already done a lot of research so

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he put me in touch with all the the big players

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so I was then dealing with

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with with not not the guys at at the low level I was

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dealing with their you know R&D teams with their CEOs

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with their you know

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you know so I got to learn a lot quick quickly

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what's the biggest mistakes that people make

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with Astro astro turf so astro turf what was the first

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artificial turf that that went down in

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the Houston Astrodome whatever it was 50

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years ago so it's come a long way since then um

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well well cheapest so what are the I guess

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you know I think think

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people have a negative perception of artificial turf

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based on what they see

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and there's not a lot of good good

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examples out there to be honest although that's now

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improving with with some of the

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spaces that we're doing and some of the spaces

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that others are doing but really you know

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the quality of some of the turf now nylon turf

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uh is uh um is really really good and strong

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I mean you know so you know so so good that Phil

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Mickelson Nick Faldo yeah Patrick Reid

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would want to build in their own back backyards um

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you know so

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Rory too yeah

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uh you know so it can be incredibly realistic um

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I think think one of the the issues is

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uh and I'm not gonna tap myself and my team

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and this was one of the things that we identified

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early on James is that a lot of these

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spaces were being built by non golf people

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so you had landscape people and you had just Joe blogs

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thinking

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hey I can just stick something in my back backyard

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uh and and that's where we came in and said well

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we can design a space so we know how to design golf

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yes grass greens and there is a difference

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but in fact when you but

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but in fact with artificial turf

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you can do a lot more than with grass

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cause you're not worried about mowing machines

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and you're not worried about wear and tear

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and you're not worried about entry exit points and

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you know stuff like like that so your greens

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can be smaller too and you can create as much cool

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stuff

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as any normal green as any green that you'd see in

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in Baddesley Andrews um

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and then you know and then we have a team of guys who built

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golf so you know

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building artificial turf spaces is is probably a bit

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bit easier than building grass spaces

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cause there's not as many moving

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parts so when you think about you know doing a

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just say a USGA green

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spec I mean you know there's a lot of moving parts

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there irrigation drainage gravel as root boots on sand

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you know I mean you know you need a lot of smart folk

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a lot of guys like not feel yourself

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there and I I guess I guess when you're building

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our artificial turf there's there's less layers um

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and so yes so you know so the turf was important

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so you know the the the R&D

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that that's been done on on on that's been

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you know really really strong

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you know and these artificial turf manufacturing

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companies now I mean they're doing

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doing quite quite well so they're spending

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quite a bit of money on on on this stuff and you know

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they're obviously seeing through

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stuff like the TGL and stuff that we're doing and

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and what not that you know that there's a real demand

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for for this so you know they're willing to spend

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you know kind of money making it look like like real so

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I guess it's going going back to

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to your question I think people see driving

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bay mats and they see you know

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John Smith's backyard and they think wow it's actually

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pretty crap but in fact

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you know there is potential to do something that is not

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crap and is actually really strong um

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it just needs the right turf

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it just needs the right people

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designing and building it um uh yeah you know and then

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I guess guess the the the realism

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I mean one of the the biggest issues has always been

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the realism of the bounce

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um and again Dave Pal spent a lot of time

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doing research and doing a lot of testing on this

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and he came came up with his

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with his patented shot stopper

0:10:01.233,0:10:03.433
that we use which is you know

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I guess similar to building a USGA green it's

0:10:06.600,0:10:08.733
you know an underlayment system that goes underneath

0:10:08.733,0:10:12.066
the turf which is a mix of foam silica sand rubber mix

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that gets what's it compacted in there and then

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the actual turf itself

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has like a rubber embossed back backing

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and that sits on top and then you have sand

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on top so it it it really is very very receptive

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and you know and I'm and I'm

0:10:24.333,0:10:26.766
probably getting a bit more technical here but

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you know I think think

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you know they've answered a lot of the the

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the issues with with these spaces uh in in the past

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what do you think is the biggest difficulty then now

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well the the the sale uh to uh towards the golf clubs

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uh you know because of the the the negative

0:10:44.600,0:10:47.866
perception um I think you know I mean

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environmentally it's strong in

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terms of the the limited input but you know um

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I guess down down the line you know

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if you do replace it you know there is the wastage

0:11:00.833,0:11:02.066
there um

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you know it's never gonna be

0:11:04.933,0:11:06.966
100% like like a grass green

0:11:07.100,0:11:10.233
you know it might be 95% um

0:11:10.633,0:11:12.966
you know or even even 97% but it's

0:11:12.966,0:11:16.200
never gonna be exactly like like a grass green um

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so that you know

0:11:17.666,0:11:20.800
that would be be one I guess guess the cost

0:11:20.966,0:11:22.800
you know the initial cost

0:11:23.100,0:11:25.833
is probably a bit more than that well it isn't

0:11:26.433,0:11:27.233
it certainly is a bit

0:11:27.233,0:11:29.233
bit more than the cost of a grass

0:11:29.233,0:11:31.966
green but of course you know the the

0:11:31.966,0:11:34.666
intersection of you know the cost to maintain a grass

0:11:34.666,0:11:38.100
green I mean if you look at a a standard USGA green

0:11:38.100,0:11:39.500
you know cool season warm season

0:11:39.500,0:11:41.066
you're probably looking at about two bucks a square

0:11:41.066,0:11:43.966
foot so you know thousands of bucks or at least

0:11:43.966,0:11:45.266
hundreds of thousands of bucks

0:11:45.266,0:11:46.866
a year spent on was it maintaining

0:11:46.866,0:11:49.333
just greens whereas with an artificial turf green

0:11:49.433,0:11:50.066
the cost is

0:11:50.066,0:11:53.033
is a lot less you know there is still maintenance um

0:11:53.033,0:11:57.566
but but your initial outlay cost is a bit bit more um

0:11:58.466,0:12:00.800
so that would probably probably be the things

0:12:00.900,0:12:04.166
that that that we would witness is being the

0:12:05.133,0:12:05.700
biggest how

0:12:05.700,0:12:07.766
fascinating I I'm sorry it's we've fallen

0:12:07.766,0:12:10.066
into a hole that I didn't expect to fall into

0:12:10.066,0:12:12.133
but it really is amazing because

0:12:12.133,0:12:14.033
there's a lot of things going on in the world of golf

0:12:14.033,0:12:14.833
but

0:12:15.333,0:12:19.766
this is something that is I would say fairly new and

0:12:20.933,0:12:23.800
it's like um how to describe it

0:12:23.833,0:12:26.366
the take off of the internet by the older

0:12:26.366,0:12:29.433
crowd you know it's like it's like when

0:12:29.733,0:12:31.433
I was gonna say it's like when San Hills

0:12:31.433,0:12:34.133
came came online what the hell or it's like when uh

0:12:34.266,0:12:35.933
you know that is

0:12:35.933,0:12:37.333
Andrew's came online I don't know

0:12:37.333,0:12:40.333
I mean I'm just saying but yes I mean you know you know there is a lot of

0:12:40.633,0:12:43.100
uh probably 99 point well

0:12:43.100,0:12:46.866
probably 99% of people don't actually know what was going on there you know it's

0:12:46.866,0:12:47.433
it's probably much

0:12:47.433,0:12:50.066
much like the the things going on at Tesla and

0:12:50.066,0:12:51.733
at Google you know there's probably

0:12:51.733,0:12:53.966
a lot of things or you know there behind the scenes

0:12:53.966,0:12:56.833
that I mean they're probably leaps and bounds ahead

0:12:56.966,0:12:59.500
and uh in terms of you know the artificial turf

0:12:59.500,0:13:00.900
space and that yeah it's

0:13:00.900,0:13:02.466
it's certainly come come a long way

0:13:02.466,0:13:04.533
within the space of time that I've been

0:13:04.733,0:13:06.766
been involved in this it's

0:13:06.766,0:13:09.133
my mum doesn't trust electrical car electric cars

0:13:09.133,0:13:10.733
she refuses to get electric car

0:13:10.733,0:13:13.533
she just wants a combustion engine and that's her

0:13:13.533,0:13:14.133
and it's fair

0:13:14.133,0:13:17.933
enough like it's what I know she doesn't have to worry about what's gonna happen in

0:13:18.900,0:13:22.433
yeah like whatever years she's um and probably

0:13:22.566,0:13:25.200
by the time yeah she's just quite content with her

0:13:25.500,0:13:28.233
she still recycles she does all the positives

0:13:28.266,0:13:31.766
you know but it's just she trusts in a combustion car

0:13:31.933,0:13:34.100
but you know one what's a thing thing that so

0:13:34.100,0:13:36.033
you know sorry and I'm and I'm no I'm not

0:13:36.033,0:13:37.633
speak speak a lot here but I think

0:13:37.633,0:13:40.400
think the one cool thing that artificial turf has done

0:13:40.500,0:13:43.733
is it's it's kind of grown the the game in many ways

0:13:43.733,0:13:46.533
you know before you couldn't have an indoor space

0:13:46.933,0:13:49.766
you know uh and before you couldn't stick

0:13:49.766,0:13:52.033
something in a bloody shop and says enter somewhere

0:13:52.033,0:13:54.066
you know um and do you think

0:13:54.066,0:13:56.366
you know I just think think about here in Canada

0:13:56.500,0:13:59.633
where I am right now you know we have uh an office here

0:13:59.766,0:14:03.200
um and I'm here for for the next few few weeks but

0:14:03.300,0:14:05.700
you know probably probably 20 year years

0:14:05.700,0:14:08.300
ago you could only play golf for six or seven

0:14:08.300,0:14:10.900
months of the year and now there's all these spaces

0:14:10.900,0:14:12.433
where you can go and bloody play golf

0:14:12.433,0:14:16.600
12 months of the year so do you think the R&D into um

0:14:16.900,0:14:21.400
Astroturf is pretty much linked to things like the

0:14:21.533,0:14:26.033
uh Trackman to all these indoor facilities

0:14:26.033,0:14:29.366
speaking yeah I mean trap man in range top tracer

0:14:29.366,0:14:32.300
foresight sport I know that there's a lot of you know

0:14:32.300,0:14:33.933
kind of unity and talking

0:14:33.933,0:14:36.066
and you know you know there is a lot of what's the

0:14:36.066,0:14:38.533
communication between all of those bodies

0:14:38.533,0:14:42.566
and I speak with them a fair amount um so yep no I'm in

0:14:42.566,0:14:46.200
Sydney and you know you know golf golf pros too I mean

0:14:46.500,0:14:48.466
like like I said you know we're doing stuff

0:14:48.466,0:14:51.300
with golf pros and they speak and they get give us

0:14:51.300,0:14:53.233
input and then when I speak to Sin Lorn

0:14:53.333,0:14:55.766
they say well you know what was the problem I'm like well

0:14:55.766,0:14:58.533
the colour of the turf or the speed or

0:14:58.700,0:15:00.566
you know uh this isn't that

0:15:00.566,0:15:02.966
realistic and then they just go back and

0:15:03.033,0:15:05.100
and make my changes you know and

0:15:05.100,0:15:07.433
like like I said I mean you know you know there is

0:15:07.700,0:15:09.766
you know the these companies uh

0:15:10.166,0:15:11.633
and if I look at North America

0:15:11.633,0:15:15.633
I mean 99% of the turf manufacturers are in one city

0:15:15.633,0:15:18.733
in North America Dalton Georgia so they're all talking

0:15:19.033,0:15:22.500
so they're in one one space um and um

0:15:22.500,0:15:24.866
yeah you know so they so they're very very reliant

0:15:24.866,0:15:26.066
on information

0:15:26.066,0:15:28.533
that that we give them and others in our space

0:15:29.000,0:15:30.166
you know and in some ways

0:15:30.166,0:15:32.933
we're kind of you know the R&D guys as well um

0:15:33.233,0:15:35.133
you know the kind of pioneering guys but yeah

0:15:35.133,0:15:37.933
you know they you know a lot of them see potential

0:15:37.933,0:15:39.600
and you know you just gotta look at

0:15:39.733,0:15:42.633
the TGL which really is I mean the first

0:15:43.166,0:15:45.966
PGA Tour event on artificial turf

0:15:46.500,0:15:48.833
which you know I mean I mean

0:15:49.233,0:15:51.800
you know if if you think about other sports

0:15:53.266,0:15:55.933
and you being Scottish I guess I guess you would would

0:15:55.933,0:15:57.966
enjoy soccer but I mean if I think about cricket

0:15:58.466,0:15:59.866
I mean you know I mean kind of

0:15:59.866,0:16:01.866
cricket had that transition hey where

0:16:01.900,0:16:03.933
they had that test hey you know that test

0:16:03.933,0:16:06.100
match cricket for such a long time and it was kind of

0:16:06.100,0:16:07.966
and I'm not saying golf's gonna die

0:16:08.133,0:16:09.966
Paul I still play cricket

0:16:10.766,0:16:13.533
I still play cricket and I play in Scotland

0:16:13.566,0:16:15.900
and for people don't know you need firm

0:16:15.900,0:16:19.066
and fast hard ground to play cricket on

0:16:19.533,0:16:22.733
and the only way we can get that majority of our games

0:16:22.733,0:16:24.500
in the shoulder season

0:16:24.500,0:16:27.166
is with Astroturf or with turf or with

0:16:28.066,0:16:30.900
turf yeah so I I got you I got you but

0:16:30.900,0:16:33.066
but you know I'm not kind of relating astro turf

0:16:33.066,0:16:35.766
to or artificial turf to cricket I mean where

0:16:35.766,0:16:37.233
I mean what what I'm saying is that if

0:16:37.233,0:16:39.500
if you look at the evolution of cricket

0:16:39.500,0:16:41.866
and you kind of say and and you and you

0:16:41.866,0:16:43.033
and you look look at golf

0:16:43.033,0:16:44.633
and and I'm I'm not saying golf

0:16:44.633,0:16:46.866
is anywhere near where cricket was 15

0:16:46.866,0:16:48.433
years ago where you know you had test

0:16:48.433,0:16:51.666
cricket which took five days that's a long time

0:16:51.666,0:16:54.933
my wife and kids would never have kind of bought into that and then they

0:16:55.133,0:16:58.933
boredom T20 cricket which is now the most popular

0:16:58.933,0:17:01.266
form of cricket and everyone bloody plays it everyone

0:17:01.266,0:17:03.866
watches it and it only takes three or four hours

0:17:04.133,0:17:07.033
you know and and and now all these top top

0:17:07.033,0:17:09.166
cricketers are making hundreds of millions

0:17:09.533,0:17:11.333
whereas before they were making a

0:17:11.333,0:17:13.166
you know a million bucks um

0:17:13.166,0:17:16.033
and now you have all this massive viewership and now my wife will

0:17:16.033,0:17:16.533
put you know

0:17:16.533,0:17:18.333
go and go and watch it I'm just saying you know

0:17:18.333,0:17:20.500
if if you look at golf I mean I think that you know

0:17:20.500,0:17:22.666
you'll obviously have that great classic golf

0:17:22.866,0:17:25.133
and that's not going away and it's and it's very

0:17:25.300,0:17:27.733
very healthy but but I think there's that kind of

0:17:27.733,0:17:30.533
movement into that more of that entertainment kind of

0:17:30.533,0:17:31.833
different form of golf

0:17:31.833,0:17:33.866
and you know maybe maybe it's not kind of your

0:17:33.866,0:17:35.600
old school classic stuff

0:17:35.700,0:17:37.933
but I can see that that that space you know there

0:17:37.933,0:17:40.266
there is a great saying by Wayne Gretzky

0:17:40.733,0:17:42.900
I don't go to where the puck is I go sorry

0:17:42.900,0:17:43.433
great players

0:17:43.433,0:17:44.933
don't go to where the puck is great players

0:17:44.933,0:17:47.033
go to where the puck's gonna be and I think

0:17:47.033,0:17:49.366
think you know I mean I think think that if in sport

0:17:49.366,0:17:51.600
or in anything if you don't kind of move

0:17:51.833,0:17:53.533
with the times I think you know

0:17:53.533,0:17:55.433
you're probably coming stuck somewhere

0:17:55.966,0:17:58.033
it's so true and it's really it's so

0:17:58.033,0:18:00.833
interesting right cause um golf is

0:18:01.300,0:18:04.433
viewership in terms of golf four day stuff is a bunch of old

0:18:04.433,0:18:07.466
men who aren't who've got nothing to do

0:18:07.633,0:18:11.066
and um are bored at home and

0:18:11.966,0:18:12.566
no offense

0:18:12.566,0:18:15.466
to every single person that probably listens to this podcast

0:18:15.733,0:18:16.533
there's a

0:18:17.266,0:18:20.933
there is needing to be a push a re invention of um

0:18:21.666,0:18:24.966
of essentially what we've done for years and let

0:18:24.966,0:18:27.466
let's be honest the live guys try to do it

0:18:27.466,0:18:29.433
and still trying to do it

0:18:29.833,0:18:33.833
TGL's a nighttime activity like the T20

0:18:34.500,0:18:35.300
but why

0:18:36.233,0:18:39.633
golf wasn't played over and over four days

0:18:39.866,0:18:43.766
stroke play 100 years ago it was all match play mm hmm

0:18:44.233,0:18:45.033
yeah

0:18:45.166,0:18:50.366
and I know the guys are trying to do a bit of that by doing things like the match and

0:18:50.966,0:18:52.833
all these kind of one off events

0:18:53.500,0:18:57.633
are engaging but I don't know if we have found the

0:18:57.633,0:18:59.766
solution yet whether TGL is the solution

0:18:59.766,0:19:03.833
that's the question yeah not not sure but you know

0:19:04.233,0:19:05.966
for for me it's quite

0:19:05.966,0:19:10.000
encouraging to you know to see all these outlets

0:19:10.733,0:19:13.466
but like
like I said you know I think you you get a bit

0:19:13.466,0:19:14.633
stagnant if you don't

0:19:14.633,0:19:17.666
change and you don't move into that different space

0:19:17.733,0:19:20.300
at least at least from my perspective I mean I

0:19:20.300,0:19:22.833
I massively appreciate great golf

0:19:22.833,0:19:25.433
and that's been my background and that's been how I learnt

0:19:25.433,0:19:26.666
this game you know going and seeing

0:19:26.666,0:19:28.133
good golf and going and seeing

0:19:28.333,0:19:32.333
interesting and unique golf um but you know certainly

0:19:32.333,0:19:33.966
certainly in the space that we live

0:19:33.966,0:19:35.766
it you know for me to kind of see that

0:19:35.766,0:19:37.033
that growth and you know

0:19:37.266,0:19:39.933
people being interested in that um

0:19:40.033,0:19:43.100
is quite encouraging and that and that doesn't seem to be slowing down

0:19:43.100,0:19:45.000
I mean we're getting a lot more inquiries

0:19:45.466,0:19:47.800
do you think we'll ever see a great

0:19:48.100,0:19:50.433
golf course built with artificial turf

0:19:50.466,0:19:54.300
I don't know I don't know I mean you know from an environmental perspective

0:19:54.300,0:19:57.400
I I mean I'm not sure that is the best thing um

0:19:57.966,0:20:01.333
but you know but like like I said I you know um

0:20:02.300,0:20:03.700
it it's not impossible

0:20:03.700,0:20:07.033
because you cause you you can do just just as much

0:20:07.033,0:20:09.733
using artificial turf as you can with grass in fact

0:20:10.000,0:20:11.900
you could probably make it more interesting

0:20:11.900,0:20:14.300
you know imagine you know a kind of Saint Andrews

0:20:14.300,0:20:16.566
with all the humps and bumps but even more kind of demanding

0:20:16.566,0:20:17.133
cause you're not

0:20:17.133,0:20:18.466
cause you're not worried about scalping

0:20:18.466,0:20:20.466
and mowing machines and all of that stuff

0:20:20.533,0:20:22.633
and you can get get the turf to

0:20:22.766,0:20:26.233
run fast and you can have I mean I was with um

0:20:26.233,0:20:27.633
I was with one of my partners

0:20:27.633,0:20:31.166
Gareth Raffleski who's a golf coach uh last week

0:20:31.166,0:20:33.466
and we're looking at a at a 400 square

0:20:33.466,0:20:35.700
meter about a 4,000 square foot space

0:20:35.700,0:20:39.333
and in that space he's got a a 200 square meter green

0:20:39.333,0:20:41.033
and we were like OK well within this green

0:20:41.033,0:20:41.933
we're gonna have a section

0:20:41.933,0:20:44.633
that runs at 10 speed a section that runs at 11 speed

0:20:44.666,0:20:45.333
we'll have a section

0:20:45.333,0:20:48.666
that's bouncy we have a section that's you know uh

0:20:48.666,0:20:50.266
non bouncy so I

0:20:50.266,0:20:53.333
if if he's got Corey Connors there or Nick Taylor

0:20:53.366,0:20:54.866
and they're gonna go and play

0:20:54.933,0:20:56.533
you know North Berwick or Galeane

0:20:56.533,0:20:58.366
next week it's gonna be a bit more bouncy

0:20:58.366,0:20:59.833
than gonna go and play a golf course

0:20:59.833,0:21:02.100
in northern Chicago you know the next week

0:21:02.100,0:21:04.466
so all within this 200 square meters

0:21:04.466,0:21:06.500
we we can create all these environments and then

0:21:06.500,0:21:07.566
around the side

0:21:07.566,0:21:09.433
we're like well we well we can put in a cool

0:21:09.433,0:21:11.733
season grass we can do a a warm season

0:21:11.733,0:21:15.433
Kikuya a cool season fescue we can have a tight line

0:21:15.733,0:21:18.100
you know
you know so you can do a lot more within a smaller

0:21:18.100,0:21:20.800
environment and that to me is quite cool um

0:21:20.866,0:21:23.233
so yeah I mean that's very cool

0:21:23.533,0:21:25.966
you know I don't think it's impossible uh

0:21:25.966,0:21:28.533
that that you can't do something really cool it's just

0:21:28.533,0:21:31.766
it's just who's got got the money um you know

0:21:31.900,0:21:34.166
you could do it maybe maybe in bloody Saudi I I

0:21:34.166,0:21:35.300
you know I wouldn't know but

0:21:35.300,0:21:37.233
but you could certainly do something cool

0:21:37.700,0:21:39.300
you would think that somewhere like

0:21:39.300,0:21:40.733
Saudi or Abu Dhabi or

0:21:40.733,0:21:43.066
UAE would be the right right place yeah

0:21:43.333,0:21:44.933
where grass is hard to grow

0:21:45.833,0:21:47.600
yeah well that I mean

0:21:47.766,0:21:52.266
artificial turf battles more in the heat versus the um

0:21:52.566,0:21:56.033
cold you know so it can be set in 300 degrees

0:21:56.266,0:21:58.900
Celsius minus and it's absolutely

0:21:58.900,0:22:01.933
fine but if it's in I think if it gets beyond I think

0:22:02.333,0:22:07.000
70 degrees Celsius and I'll have to check that or 100

0:22:07.366,0:22:08.833
and I guess out in Saudi

0:22:08.933,0:22:11.366
with the sand and what what not you know

0:22:11.366,0:22:13.933
it get quite hot but again uh

0:22:14.633,0:22:15.733
with this artificial turf

0:22:15.733,0:22:17.433
now some of the turf has heat blocks

0:22:17.433,0:22:20.533
so they reduce this the the heat of of of the turf

0:22:20.633,0:22:22.833
you know so there's ways much much like

0:22:22.833,0:22:24.833
I guess much like when the first apple phone

0:22:24.833,0:22:27.066
came out it was it was very basic

0:22:27.333,0:22:31.266
and then you know all this kind of input and feedback they're kind of going OK well

0:22:31.366,0:22:33.133
if we're gonna do stuff in Saudi Arabia

0:22:33.133,0:22:34.633
well the the the heat of the

0:22:34.633,0:22:36.300
the the heat and the and the turf

0:22:36.300,0:22:38.466
temperature is high so how do we

0:22:38.533,0:22:40.100
reduce that so you know they'll

0:22:40.100,0:22:42.166
they'll find a way I mean they're a lot more smarter than

0:22:42.166,0:22:42.900
than me

0:22:42.900,0:22:45.633
let's move on to your journey and your bit about your

0:22:45.700,0:22:48.666
um how you got into golf course architecture cause I've

0:22:48.666,0:22:49.566
just spent 20 minutes

0:22:49.566,0:22:52.233
talking about artificial turf and it's Paul

0:22:52.466,0:22:53.266
on your part

0:22:53.700,0:22:57.166
you could not pay me to talk to about artificial turf

0:22:57.166,0:22:59.100
before this conversation

0:22:59.100,0:23:01.866
genuinely but that was fascinating really interesting

0:23:02.333,0:23:04.500
um let's talk about a wee

0:23:04.500,0:23:06.466
bit about how you got into golf course architecture

0:23:06.866,0:23:08.133
wow when it all start

0:23:08.533,0:23:10.766
where it all started well I when I was born in

0:23:10.766,0:23:12.866
Zimbabwe I mean back then it was uh

0:23:13.266,0:23:14.533
it was Southern Rhodesia

0:23:14.533,0:23:16.600
so that's how long ago I was born although

0:23:17.633,0:23:20.333
and then I uh yeah you know and then and then the

0:23:20.333,0:23:22.366
family moved down to Durban South Africa

0:23:22.366,0:23:24.433
I mean I'm not sure if you've ever been to South Africa

0:23:24.566,0:23:26.866
but Durban yeah I mean with the

0:23:27.033,0:23:30.466
you know Durbs is on the uh the um East Coast

0:23:31.033,0:23:32.833
um lovely lovely city

0:23:32.933,0:23:35.933
probably two or three million folk and uh

0:23:35.933,0:23:37.066
schooled there uh

0:23:37.333,0:23:42.400
and that's I mean that's where I started so there was a

0:23:42.833,0:23:45.633
there was a a municipal course next to Durban Country

0:23:45.633,0:23:47.133
Club so if if

0:23:47.133,0:23:49.400
you know you're probably know Durban Country Club

0:23:50.300,0:23:51.100
um

0:23:51.966,0:23:53.666
but there was a municipal course

0:23:53.666,0:23:54.866
next next door called Windsor

0:23:54.866,0:23:56.300
I'm not sure if it's called that anymore

0:23:56.300,0:23:58.033
but they had a little mashie course

0:23:58.266,0:24:01.133
a mashie course being a little par 3 a little

0:24:01.366,0:24:04.066
almost a little chip and putt course 50 to

0:24:04.666,0:24:08.766
100 yards and I lived um well at least we lived um

0:24:08.966,0:24:10.700
up on the hill in Morningside and I

0:24:10.700,0:24:13.600
used to trek down with my sticks

0:24:13.666,0:24:15.166
and just play this little mashie

0:24:15.166,0:24:17.233
course and it was almost free to play I think you

0:24:17.233,0:24:19.633
you could just about walk on and then they had a pro

0:24:19.633,0:24:22.466
shop
just across the road and they had a little green there and I used to

0:24:22.533,0:24:24.133
hit it shots and then um

0:24:24.866,0:24:26.433
uh I went to Durban Boys High

0:24:26.433,0:24:27.466
which was a good sporting

0:24:27.466,0:24:28.933
school a good a great great cricket

0:24:28.933,0:24:31.433
school a great Rugby school and also a great golf school actually Rory

0:24:31.433,0:24:35.733
Sabbatini was a year above me at school and um

0:24:36.033,0:24:37.600
a few others um

0:24:38.033,0:24:41.466
you know so they had had had a golf team and um

0:24:41.933,0:24:44.300
I played a bit of golf there uh with

0:24:44.300,0:24:47.033
with the golf team and then I became a member at Royal

0:24:47.433,0:24:48.233
Durban

0:24:48.466,0:24:50.700
which again shouldn't be mixed up with Durban Country

0:24:50.700,0:24:52.266
Club Royal Durban is based

0:24:52.266,0:24:55.033
in the gravel racetrack so it's got a

0:24:55.033,0:24:57.666
an actual horse racetrack around the course and uh

0:24:57.666,0:25:00.800
it's actually somewhat linksy actually it's very open

0:25:01.233,0:25:05.066
I mean it's not on the sea um and it's kikuyu grass so

0:25:05.500,0:25:07.833
uh you know it's it's you know it's not a very

0:25:07.833,0:25:11.800
linksy bounce but um yeah Sawyer was a member there

0:25:11.900,0:25:14.866
uh and when you were a member at Royal Durban you had

0:25:14.866,0:25:16.366
reciprocity at just about every golf

0:25:16.366,0:25:18.466
course in South Africa so when we travelled

0:25:18.500,0:25:19.533
beautiful sport

0:25:20.100,0:25:21.266
or you know a break

0:25:21.500,0:25:24.466
I would uh I would try and play play golf and it was

0:25:24.466,0:25:26.566
it was certainly very very cheap playing playing golf

0:25:26.566,0:25:29.866
um back back then I mean if I recall

0:25:29.866,0:25:32.200
a membership and this would have been in the late eighties

0:25:32.733,0:25:34.166
early 90s a membership at Royal

0:25:34.166,0:25:36.033
Durban would have been something like 200 rand

0:25:36.033,0:25:38.033
and if you look at I mean I think

0:25:38.033,0:25:40.566
200 rand today is about £10

0:25:40.866,0:25:43.366
and that and that and that gave me

0:25:43.366,0:25:46.433
access to to the club every day um

0:25:46.700,0:25:48.233
except for Saturday morning

0:25:48.466,0:25:51.300
you know and I could go out and just you know put some

0:25:51.300,0:25:52.466
practice and then go and play

0:25:52.466,0:25:53.966
nine holes and of course I had friends

0:25:53.966,0:25:56.033
around and yeah so so that was it

0:25:56.233,0:25:57.866
that was it and kind of you know

0:25:57.933,0:26:00.000
you know I got caught the bug and uh

0:26:00.166,0:26:01.900
I guess the you know the rest is history

0:26:01.900,0:26:03.766
I'm you know I love love sport I mean I love

0:26:03.766,0:26:06.600
love Rugby growing up and I love cricket and

0:26:07.533,0:26:10.066
these
sports you have to love if you're South African right

0:26:10.433,0:26:11.533
yeah yeah

0:26:11.633,0:26:13.766
how did you become a golf course architect then

0:26:14.266,0:26:17.066
hell that's a great great question and you know

0:26:17.400,0:26:18.100
I guess when

0:26:18.100,0:26:20.433
when I think about the guys today and they're talking

0:26:20.433,0:26:24.533
about you know oh I I knew I knew you know

0:26:24.533,0:26:26.466
Mackenzie and Donald Ross and

0:26:26.466,0:26:29.666
Hodgkin and you know Colt and all of those guys

0:26:29.933,0:26:33.200
I probably didn't even know though those guys until I

0:26:33.266,0:26:35.766
I probably you know started to

0:26:36.433,0:26:38.866
you know I kind of started my what's the degree at in

0:26:39.433,0:26:41.433
well not of my degree I

0:26:41.533,0:26:43.566
I started my work out in Washington DC

0:26:43.566,0:26:45.533
but I did a degree in town planning

0:26:45.533,0:26:47.966
because I've always been fascinated in big scale design

0:26:47.966,0:26:50.466
big scale landscape design um

0:26:51.166,0:26:55.333
you know kind of city planning um and I guess

0:26:55.833,0:26:57.866
by my second or third year I was like shit

0:26:57.866,0:26:59.966
I don't wanna be stuck in the office here

0:27:00.366,0:27:03.066
you know doing dumb permits or site plan approvals

0:27:03.066,0:27:05.266
I mean that's just not not stuff that I enjoy

0:27:05.333,0:27:07.366
and how can I merge design

0:27:07.366,0:27:08.933
with with a with a passion for sport

0:27:08.933,0:27:11.166
and you know particularly golf and I guess

0:27:11.166,0:27:13.566
back then it was the early days of the internet

0:27:14.066,0:27:17.400
and I I did some research and there was you know um the

0:27:17.866,0:27:19.500
American Society of Golf Course Architects

0:27:19.500,0:27:22.333
and there was the I think it was back then it was the

0:27:23.066,0:27:25.600
British Society of Golf Course Architects is now the

0:27:25.666,0:27:28.000
you know European and I wrote to um

0:27:28.766,0:27:30.300
a number of members

0:27:30.300,0:27:32.933
and I ended up doing an internship in Washington DC

0:27:32.933,0:27:33.933
for a group called

0:27:33.933,0:27:36.300
Alcock and Associates so just outside of Washington

0:27:36.300,0:27:39.766
DC in a town called Kensington and I recall

0:27:39.766,0:27:41.700
flying into Washington DC I would have been

0:27:41.700,0:27:43.233
so this was after four years of studies

0:27:43.233,0:27:44.833
I would have been probably 22 or

0:27:44.833,0:27:47.066
23 that was the first time I actually seen snow

0:27:47.633,0:27:49.866
uh so I remember landing in um

0:27:50.300,0:27:53.466
in the Dallas airport in Washington DC and getting

0:27:53.866,0:27:56.633
picked up in this white white snow but yeah so that was

0:27:56.633,0:28:00.066
kind of my my first uh introduction to

0:28:00.933,0:28:03.266
to to I guess golf course design

0:28:03.266,0:28:06.666
what was the time I spent with with the guys at uh at

0:28:06.666,0:28:08.966
uh
you know Al Clark and Associates and I'm still friends

0:28:08.966,0:28:09.966
with um with

0:28:09.966,0:28:11.133
with a few of them I mean Tom

0:28:11.133,0:28:13.233
Clark I saw Tom Clark I mean Tom could be probably

0:28:13.233,0:28:15.600
80 now I saw him last year I was down in

0:28:15.933,0:28:18.533
Virginia with him and then Jim Savonne

0:28:18.533,0:28:19.566
who was one of the architects

0:28:19.566,0:28:23.300
at the time he's just bought a golf club in Pennsylvania and I spent a day with him last

0:28:23.300,0:28:25.233
last year so you know I'm still I'm still

0:28:25.233,0:28:26.800
I'm still friendly with them um

0:28:27.466,0:28:28.333
and then yeah

0:28:28.333,0:28:30.966
you know and then from from there I ended up in the

0:28:30.966,0:28:34.366
in the UK so I had a I had a year internship

0:28:34.900,0:28:39.166
um in DC and I obviously I came into the US um

0:28:39.433,0:28:42.066
on a certain visa so I had to leave uh

0:28:42.066,0:28:44.166
and then come back on another visa

0:28:44.166,0:28:46.466
and and they were applying for for that and then

0:28:46.833,0:28:48.566
you know you had the Twin Towers

0:28:49.133,0:28:53.333
effect and uh I was I was kind of stuck in uh in

0:28:53.333,0:28:56.100
London UK without much much bloody money

0:28:56.100,0:28:59.366
and I was like shit you know uh what do I do

0:28:59.566,0:29:01.233
and um you know I I

0:29:01.233,0:29:03.766
back back then I had spoken to a few course architects

0:29:03.766,0:29:05.533
and I was you know uh uh

0:29:06.233,0:29:08.933
steel and uh horticulture

0:29:09.566,0:29:12.433
uh
and there was no work and I guess through my studies

0:29:12.433,0:29:13.266
I um

0:29:14.233,0:29:18.000
you know I done GIS geographic information systems

0:29:18.033,0:29:22.233
and back then uh it was it you know it was new um

0:29:22.633,0:29:23.366
and it was basic

0:29:23.366,0:29:26.566
I mean now when when you think about you know maps and

0:29:26.666,0:29:29.666
ways and all of these great great systems but back then

0:29:29.666,0:29:32.566
it was new and I was employed as a consultant

0:29:32.566,0:29:35.900
for the railways to help them build their JS systems

0:29:35.900,0:29:37.633
so I mean I think about Scotland

0:29:37.833,0:29:39.800
I used to work out in Houston

0:29:39.933,0:29:41.333
in London in King's Cross

0:29:41.333,0:29:44.000
and I I worked on that the West Coast main line

0:29:44.066,0:29:47.433
but I kind of uh I was involved in in all the

0:29:47.433,0:29:50.466
the the mapping and the mapping intelligence on that uh

0:29:50.566,0:29:52.733
and I was making good good money and whilst

0:29:52.733,0:29:54.166
I was not in the

0:29:54.833,0:29:56.633
design field I was out in London

0:29:56.633,0:29:57.966
buying all the golf books

0:29:58.333,0:30:01.300
you know so I was at sports pages and foils and

0:30:01.300,0:30:05.133
Waterstones so you know so in that in those few years

0:30:05.533,0:30:07.033
between me working

0:30:07.933,0:30:09.833
as a course designer

0:30:09.866,0:30:12.533
I was still doing a lot of that stuff and then

0:30:13.100,0:30:15.733
most most weekends I was flying around I was up in

0:30:15.733,0:30:17.633
Scotland I was in Ireland I was in Holland

0:30:17.633,0:30:21.066
I was in France you know so I so so I really good got

0:30:21.066,0:30:22.333
got a really good grounding

0:30:22.333,0:30:24.700
in in in in the two or three years that I was

0:30:24.700,0:30:26.200
outside of the business

0:30:26.366,0:30:28.500
in the sense that I got to see all the great golf

0:30:28.500,0:30:29.533
when I say all of them

0:30:29.533,0:30:31.133
a lot of the great great golf courses

0:30:31.166,0:30:32.433
and I probably didn't have any

0:30:32.433,0:30:33.933
mentorship you know so there was no

0:30:33.933,0:30:35.700
you know top 100 saying

0:30:35.700,0:30:38.266
hey these are the top golf courses so go and see them

0:30:38.266,0:30:40.766
it was kind of me just kind of you know hey

0:30:40.766,0:30:42.533
it'd be quite cool to go and see the stuff around

0:30:42.533,0:30:42.933
Presswick

0:30:42.933,0:30:44.566
it'd be quite cool to go and see the stuff out

0:30:44.566,0:30:46.400
and you know the ring of Kerry and

0:30:46.500,0:30:48.166
quite cool cool to go and see see the stuff

0:30:48.166,0:30:51.833
out of Daddy Holland um so yeah so that and then

0:30:51.833,0:30:52.500
then yeah I mean I got

0:30:52.500,0:30:55.866
got a call in 2000 I think early 2004 um

0:30:55.866,0:30:58.500
you know to get back into things and I started to work with

0:30:58.500,0:30:59.733
with the photo group

0:31:00.233,0:31:05.133
and no one was going out to Holland in 2000 no no no

0:31:05.466,0:31:09.333
like what I know well I mean now you know now now

0:31:09.333,0:31:12.233
when when people say oh you took Japan and Canada

0:31:12.266,0:31:16.000
and Norway and Denmark and Sweden and helvishum

0:31:16.266,0:31:17.433
you know I was like well

0:31:17.433,0:31:19.933
yeah I mean I'd seen all of those and then I was in Belgium

0:31:19.933,0:31:21.800
I went to um

0:31:21.900,0:31:25.233
knocker you know raw zoot uh and obviously a roll

0:31:25.233,0:31:28.200
and tap and you know tubes a few few others and um

0:31:28.333,0:31:30.033
yeah I mean back back then it was I'm

0:31:30.033,0:31:32.233
you know there was no kind of guidance

0:31:32.233,0:31:34.133
it was kind of just you know and I'd obviously

0:31:34.133,0:31:37.166
spoken with Wizard folks and when when I was actually

0:31:37.166,0:31:40.266
actually the Dutch trip actually um I'd

0:31:40.266,0:31:41.300
you know cause I'd

0:31:41.300,0:31:44.766
gone out a few times I'd spoken with uh with Nick Faldo

0:31:44.833,0:31:48.966
uh about this and you know I'd said I you know um went

0:31:49.133,0:31:51.066
I went and looked at a at a golf

0:31:51.066,0:31:53.933
project right next door to the airport in Rotterdam

0:31:53.933,0:31:55.266
and I said to him I said

0:31:56.233,0:31:59.166
you know what are your favourite golf courses uh

0:31:59.166,0:32:02.366
in you know the kind of well in those baddie countries

0:32:02.366,0:32:04.433
and he said oh he really loves raw Zut

0:32:04.700,0:32:05.966
you know cause he had won there

0:32:05.966,0:32:07.700
before and then he said he liked

0:32:07.700,0:32:09.433
I think it was Nord Nord Nord by

0:32:09.433,0:32:12.033
so you know so those were 2 2 that I had seen

0:32:12.033,0:32:13.966
before and I went went back and uh

0:32:14.733,0:32:16.300
yeah you know so those are all places

0:32:16.300,0:32:18.100
now that are all the rage but back

0:32:18.100,0:32:20.566
back then it was kind of like yeah you know who are

0:32:20.566,0:32:22.033
who you know who who who

0:32:22.100,0:32:24.000
who are you and why are you very

0:32:24.300,0:32:26.333
interested in in in a mama club

0:32:26.500,0:32:28.433
and I think think back then I think Frank Ponti

0:32:28.433,0:32:31.166
just just started to do work and stuff so yeah

0:32:31.166,0:32:33.966
so what was the next journey after that you've done your

0:32:34.300,0:32:35.733
time and then

0:32:36.033,0:32:38.833
where was next well you know you know shit so I worked

0:32:38.833,0:32:41.200
um I worked with Nick um

0:32:43.133,0:32:46.133
and then I still do do work with Web and Nick but um

0:32:46.133,0:32:48.800
I I started my own company so so what would

0:32:48.866,0:32:50.033
so what happened was I

0:32:50.033,0:32:53.066
I was based in in London so when I started with uh

0:32:53.066,0:32:55.766
Web and Nick it was the office was in Victoria

0:32:55.833,0:32:58.400
and then they moved to Putney and then they moved to

0:32:58.966,0:33:01.133
uh uh Windsor um

0:33:01.133,0:33:03.066
and around about the time they moved from Putney

0:33:03.066,0:33:04.533
to Windsor uh

0:33:04.533,0:33:07.066
my my wife got a job opportunity

0:33:07.066,0:33:10.733
so she was with uh Proctor and gamble uh and

0:33:10.733,0:33:12.733
and they were like hey you know we got a senior

0:33:12.733,0:33:14.433
position for you in Geneva

0:33:14.433,0:33:17.066
so I then approached Nick and uh

0:33:17.066,0:33:19.933
and his manager at the time I said you know listen um

0:33:20.033,0:33:23.766
this is a great opportunity for my wife you know uh

0:33:24.233,0:33:27.066
I'd like to to move across there um

0:33:27.566,0:33:30.033
and I and you know you know still still work with you

0:33:30.033,0:33:33.100
um and you know you know we came to some

0:33:33.100,0:33:34.366
agreement that I would

0:33:34.366,0:33:36.666
still work with them as a as a consultant

0:33:36.666,0:33:37.833
and I still had had

0:33:37.833,0:33:40.833
had work that that I was doing with them and I guess

0:33:40.866,0:33:41.533
I had the

0:33:41.533,0:33:45.333
you know the opportunity to start my own company too so

0:33:45.700,0:33:50.266
uh we moved to Switzerland I think in 2,008 and um

0:33:50.366,0:33:52.733
and I started Jansen Golf

0:33:53.833,0:33:57.233
roughly around about 2009 or or or 10 um

0:33:57.300,0:34:00.200
while still doing stuff with the Nick um

0:34:00.866,0:34:03.933
and yeah you know and then then and then you know

0:34:04.233,0:34:07.033
continued to do work as dancing golf and then

0:34:07.100,0:34:09.766
in 2011 um

0:34:10.066,0:34:12.633
we decided you know cheapest man we had kids and we

0:34:12.633,0:34:14.166
decided to move out to

0:34:14.333,0:34:16.966
North America so we we we we chose

0:34:16.966,0:34:19.733
Canada and that was my mostly because of my wife

0:34:19.733,0:34:21.233
she was a big big fan of

0:34:22.433,0:34:25.533
I was I was here and uh yeah you know and then

0:34:25.933,0:34:28.266
yeah you know I guess that that LED into the whole pal

0:34:28.266,0:34:30.266
stuff back in 2017

0:34:30.266,0:34:32.666
what projects did you work with Nick on and

0:34:32.700,0:34:34.933
was there any what was the one you like I mean

0:34:35.333,0:34:36.866
yeah you know you know

0:34:37.266,0:34:39.833
uh and most course architects will say this uh

0:34:39.866,0:34:40.933
there's a lot of projects

0:34:40.933,0:34:43.733
that we work worked on that that never got finished

0:34:43.866,0:34:44.500
but uh

0:34:44.500,0:34:47.633
you know some of the more memorable ones I mean I worked on Cornelia

0:34:47.633,0:34:49.366
down in Turkey um

0:34:50.133,0:34:52.733
uh that was a a really fun one um

0:34:52.733,0:34:54.966
I helped out some of the associates uh

0:34:55.266,0:34:57.600
with a Ledra Borg in um

0:34:58.266,0:35:00.000
Denmark um

0:35:01.133,0:35:03.966
I did uh Vietnam uh Lanco

0:35:04.166,0:35:07.233
um you know so those were kind of memorable ones uh

0:35:07.233,0:35:07.766
the one that

0:35:07.766,0:35:10.100
that I'm still work working on now with Nick Ponted

0:35:10.100,0:35:14.433
Depargo that that one started back in 2005 or six um

0:35:14.833,0:35:16.933
you know so those word would be the the

0:35:16.933,0:35:19.366
you know the the more memorable ones I guess

0:35:19.366,0:35:23.233
I guess early days it was more you know Europe and

0:35:23.266,0:35:25.766
America and then when you had the market crash the work kind of

0:35:25.766,0:35:27.400
moved out to you know Asia

0:35:27.400,0:35:29.333
this episode is brought to you by the Lockhart

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0:35:51.833,0:35:53.333
uh what was the unique

0:35:53.433,0:35:55.933
uh difference between Asia and Europe and America ha

0:35:55.966,0:35:56.766
ha ha

0:35:57.633,0:35:58.700
well I mean was it

0:35:58.700,0:36:01.300
Asia's a bit more Wild West I mean you know Europe

0:36:01.300,0:36:02.733
Europe and um

0:36:03.433,0:36:06.033
America I mean a you have access to

0:36:06.133,0:36:09.333
a lot more specialized people and machinery and

0:36:09.566,0:36:13.500
you know uh you know there were a lot more examples

0:36:13.500,0:36:14.133
of golf

0:36:14.133,0:36:16.366
whereas Asia it was like you know you were like trail

0:36:16.366,0:36:17.966
blazing you know they you know

0:36:17.966,0:36:20.533
you were kind of working with people out there that

0:36:20.533,0:36:22.866
had never seen a bloody golf club and you know

0:36:22.866,0:36:25.566
you know hard hard to find certain equipment um

0:36:25.700,0:36:27.833
you know sometimes it was tough to get certain shapes

0:36:27.833,0:36:29.733
out to you know certain parts

0:36:30.233,0:36:31.833
of of the world out there um

0:36:32.333,0:36:34.966
I guess there was sometimes travel challenges I mean

0:36:34.966,0:36:37.033
a lot of these projects um

0:36:37.300,0:36:38.800
when when I think about it

0:36:39.033,0:36:41.100
I mean when we went in there I mean shit

0:36:41.100,0:36:43.766
I I think about uh Laguna Lanko

0:36:43.766,0:36:47.366
uh in in Danang and if you go to Danang now

0:36:47.433,0:36:49.666
like you know there's every single nice bloody

0:36:49.666,0:36:52.233
hotel there but when we first went into Danang

0:36:52.233,0:36:53.300
there was like only two hotels

0:36:53.300,0:36:56.533
that took bloody credit cards and there was one uh we

0:36:56.533,0:36:57.866
stayed in called the Green Plaza

0:36:57.866,0:36:59.800
I mean it was like you know it was like

0:37:00.033,0:37:02.166
just very very very you know very very basic

0:37:02.300,0:37:03.166
and actually

0:37:03.500,0:37:06.000
when we got to the the site of the first time

0:37:06.133,0:37:09.200
um you actually couldn't access the site

0:37:09.666,0:37:11.966
by road you had to get to you know

0:37:12.500,0:37:15.400
you know catch a baddy boat around and then

0:37:15.766,0:37:18.166
it was it was kind of nuts and um

0:37:18.300,0:37:20.366
you know you know so there was a lot of those kind of

0:37:20.366,0:37:23.533
you know challenges you know infrastructure people

0:37:23.533,0:37:24.166
you know I

0:37:24.166,0:37:27.133
I mean I say people but you know people with experience

0:37:27.133,0:37:30.066
um language language barriers

0:37:30.100,0:37:33.566
you know you had a lot of translators um but you know

0:37:33.566,0:37:34.733
but but for me it was

0:37:34.733,0:37:36.666
it was fun I mean you know if you kind of

0:37:36.666,0:37:39.033
look at my life and my history

0:37:39.066,0:37:40.800
I mean I love love travel

0:37:41.033,0:37:42.966
and I've been all around the world and

0:37:42.966,0:37:44.566
and I and I particularly like

0:37:44.566,0:37:47.066
I guess what what most people would say is probably

0:37:47.166,0:37:48.533
you know a bit more challenging

0:37:48.533,0:37:49.933
travel you know going to places

0:37:49.933,0:37:52.066
that are a bit more off the beaten track

0:37:52.066,0:37:54.300
and I love that I mean I love that sense of adventure

0:37:54.300,0:37:55.166
and discovery and

0:37:55.166,0:37:57.266
and maybe that was you know based on on me

0:37:57.266,0:37:58.966
growing up in bloody Africa but

0:37:59.033,0:38:00.966
you know you know kind of going to these places

0:38:00.966,0:38:03.566
and kind of experiencing a bit of the culture

0:38:03.700,0:38:06.266
and you know when when I think about um

0:38:06.433,0:38:10.066
you know the the inspirations to to me it's it's it's

0:38:10.066,0:38:11.033
you know it's not just the golf

0:38:11.033,0:38:14.033
courses I've seen it's the kind of the the land and

0:38:14.033,0:38:16.900
you know if I think about Vietnam I mean I mean we

0:38:16.900,0:38:19.333
I mean we had about five hectares of rice paddy fields

0:38:19.533,0:38:20.966
weaving through through the

0:38:20.966,0:38:23.900
the golf you know and I got that idea by just driving

0:38:23.900,0:38:25.500
around and through the Baddie Mountains

0:38:25.500,0:38:26.500
and just seeing all these rice

0:38:26.500,0:38:29.133
paddy fields and and folks working you know and

0:38:29.300,0:38:32.033
you know I love that I mean I love love going and uh

0:38:32.433,0:38:34.033
exploring um

0:38:36.333,0:38:38.866
yeah so that would be yeah I I mean those would

0:38:39.833,0:38:42.600
be the big big challenges and

0:38:42.833,0:38:45.833
yeah I mean but fun great great fun I mean now

0:38:45.833,0:38:48.000
I mean now when when I hear

0:38:48.166,0:38:50.100
folks going to Asia I'm like well it's a lot lot

0:38:50.100,0:38:52.566
easier than than back back in my days I mean

0:38:52.866,0:38:55.633
shit I mean you know some of the roads and the planes

0:38:55.633,0:38:58.100
and the airports I mean I mean the first time again

0:38:58.100,0:38:58.933
going back to Danang

0:38:58.933,0:39:00.166
the first time we flew into Danang

0:39:00.166,0:39:02.000
I mean the the airport was like a shed

0:39:02.266,0:39:04.400
it was it was like it was as basic

0:39:04.466,0:39:05.933
as it came and now if

0:39:05.933,0:39:08.033
you know not none of the airports got a Burger King

0:39:08.033,0:39:11.133
and hotels and uh you know and all of that

0:39:11.533,0:39:13.566
out of interest what was the most difficult

0:39:13.633,0:39:15.666
moment you had when you were building out in these

0:39:15.666,0:39:16.466
Asian

0:39:16.866,0:39:19.633
areas Sri Lanka Sri Lanka actually uh

0:39:19.633,0:39:21.933
and this is a story and I'm and I'm not sure whether

0:39:21.933,0:39:26.900
you you're gonna delete it or not but I I I um so I

0:39:26.900,0:39:28.566
I don't know if you've heard of the Royal Columbia

0:39:28.566,0:39:30.266
Golf Club um

0:39:30.366,0:39:33.366
I've not but I do no well you know again

0:39:33.366,0:39:36.266
it's part of of the Royal you know

0:39:36.266,0:39:38.633
kind of group of clubs so I I don't know it's

0:39:38.633,0:39:41.333
I don't know how many there are maybe 75 or so

0:39:41.733,0:39:43.900
but but Royal Colombo is a really cool club

0:39:43.900,0:39:45.066
it's in the middle of Colombo

0:39:45.066,0:39:47.433
which is the capital city of Sri Lanka

0:39:47.666,0:39:48.933
and what's cool about it

0:39:48.933,0:39:52.533
well a few things one it's on like 93 acres of land

0:39:52.533,0:39:55.733
and they do about 100,000 rounds of golf which is nuts

0:39:56.066,0:39:58.333
um but they got a railway track

0:39:58.333,0:40:00.533
a live railway track running through

0:40:00.533,0:40:03.666
the middle of a golf you know so it's not like daddy

0:40:03.666,0:40:05.933
Scotland where you know yeah you got railway tracks

0:40:05.933,0:40:08.466
but it's off of to to the side

0:40:08.500,0:40:10.500
so they've got a live railway track

0:40:10.500,0:40:12.333
and you know during peak hour

0:40:12.333,0:40:15.366
trains are are coming through every 15 20 minutes

0:40:15.466,0:40:17.166
often jam packed um

0:40:17.900,0:40:19.733
and you can stand there on some tees

0:40:19.733,0:40:21.966
and you can actually touch the the train

0:40:22.033,0:40:25.200
I mean it's absolutely absolutely wizard daddy bananas

0:40:25.500,0:40:29.933
uh but I um so I was with the commission to

0:40:30.033,0:40:31.833
build them some new practice holes

0:40:31.833,0:40:33.500
so they had this piece of land

0:40:33.500,0:40:35.366
off to the side of the one hole

0:40:35.366,0:40:37.733
and they were concerned that if they didn't use it

0:40:37.733,0:40:39.433
the government would take it back

0:40:39.433,0:40:40.766
or you know at least uh

0:40:40.766,0:40:44.966
would you know develop on it so um so they wanted me to

0:40:44.966,0:40:46.233
to build an extra hole

0:40:46.233,0:40:48.466
that they could use for a practice hole

0:40:48.466,0:40:50.166
but they could also shut down a hole

0:40:50.433,0:40:53.200
um and then you know you know do do maintenance

0:40:53.333,0:40:55.066
uh on on the other 18 holes

0:40:55.133,0:40:57.866
and then also come in and do all their um teeing

0:40:57.866,0:40:59.333
areas as well as their practice

0:40:59.333,0:41:00.700
range I mean this would have been

0:41:00.700,0:41:02.066
more than 10 years ago

0:41:03.633,0:41:04.733
and I bought

0:41:05.433,0:41:09.466
and I bought an um a shape of PM

0:41:09.466,0:41:12.400
I had I had a friend who worked with me he was based in

0:41:12.433,0:41:13.933
Nepal of all places

0:41:13.933,0:41:16.666
and he actually came in and then in a few others

0:41:17.000,0:41:18.733
but he he got sick

0:41:18.733,0:41:21.633
and had to go back and I didn't have anyone

0:41:21.633,0:41:23.866
on on the ground there for about eight weeks

0:41:23.866,0:41:25.933
so I actually flew in there and I love

0:41:25.933,0:41:27.833
love Sri Lanka I love it I mean it's an absolutely

0:41:27.833,0:41:29.933
superb place I mean if no one's been it's it's

0:41:29.933,0:41:32.833
it's an unbelievable place and just so much variety within this small

0:41:32.833,0:41:36.233
small island but I remember going in there and um

0:41:36.566,0:41:39.666
you know I mean again no one there wanted to work

0:41:40.133,0:41:42.000
no one there knew about golf

0:41:42.533,0:41:45.233
you know and we needed to get this bloody thing built

0:41:45.366,0:41:48.566
at least this at least this hole built um

0:41:48.833,0:41:51.966
before the the monsoon and Sri Lanka's got two monsoon

0:41:51.966,0:41:54.733
periods and um so I

0:41:54.733,0:41:57.666
so I so I came in there and I think the second day

0:41:57.666,0:41:59.733
I got rid of all the standard workers

0:41:59.966,0:42:02.266
and um along the railway line

0:42:02.633,0:42:07.666
um you know every day driving into to the golf club um

0:42:07.933,0:42:10.366
you know there's all these guys that would come off

0:42:10.433,0:42:11.766
off of the railway lines

0:42:11.833,0:42:14.500
and they would ask you for golf balls and money and

0:42:14.500,0:42:14.900
and what

0:42:14.900,0:42:17.166
what not and and you know and they're all drugged up

0:42:17.366,0:42:18.266
and um

0:42:19.266,0:42:20.066
and um

0:42:20.600,0:42:23.566
and you know me being me and you know I

0:42:23.566,0:42:24.733
I guess you know when

0:42:24.733,0:42:26.466
when you work in all these kind of places

0:42:26.466,0:42:28.933
you know you just know how to kind of

0:42:29.366,0:42:31.566
you know look look to problem solve quickly

0:42:32.100,0:42:36.333
um
and I was like well we gotta get this done so what if I just bring in all these kind of drug addicts

0:42:36.333,0:42:38.966
off of the railway lines and get them to come and work

0:42:39.300,0:42:44.066
and so yeah so so so I I I remember calling up a few

0:42:44.066,0:42:46.066
few guys I said how many of your friends

0:42:46.066,0:42:47.433
do do you have and they said

0:42:47.966,0:42:48.700
whatever

0:42:48.700,0:42:52.566
and I remember that the next day about 15 of them

0:42:52.666,0:42:55.566
turning up and and and what they wanted

0:42:55.566,0:43:00.233
first up was was half their pay first up so I used to

0:43:00.733,0:43:03.233
I used to hand them whatever it was 10 bucks

0:43:03.933,0:43:05.066
first up and they would

0:43:05.266,0:43:07.733
leave for about half an hour and then come back

0:43:07.733,0:43:08.666
drugged up

0:43:09.433,0:43:12.233
that they would work like absolute machines

0:43:12.233,0:43:13.866
for about four hours and we're like

0:43:13.866,0:43:15.733
their eyes were like this and they would just dig dig

0:43:15.733,0:43:17.033
me out with the trench and

0:43:17.033,0:43:18.366
shit it was done or you know

0:43:18.366,0:43:20.633
kind of tap this and it was done or or you know

0:43:21.300,0:43:21.766
and

0:43:21.766,0:43:24.933
yeah you know so that kind of work worked a a a charm

0:43:24.933,0:43:26.933
but that was but that was kind of um

0:43:27.166,0:43:28.700
you know she was one of the challenges

0:43:28.700,0:43:30.133
that that you had to find a quick quick

0:43:30.133,0:43:31.666
solution or else she would come come

0:43:31.666,0:43:34.400
unstuck and of course you know out there you know there wasn't like

0:43:34.633,0:43:37.966
here or in Europe where I could call upon a shaper

0:43:37.966,0:43:39.766
you know that's an island and come come across

0:43:39.766,0:43:42.766
you know tomorrow or you know

0:43:42.766,0:43:44.333
so it was kind of one of those ones

0:43:44.333,0:43:46.733
where where I had to find find a bloody

0:43:46.733,0:43:48.733
solution quick quickly but yeah so that

0:43:48.733,0:43:50.033
would have been been that

0:43:50.033,0:43:52.633
you know the one good good thing about that was that

0:43:52.633,0:43:53.900
it was Sri Lanka it

0:43:53.900,0:43:56.433
you know it wasn't the middle of bloody China

0:43:56.433,0:43:57.833
you know it it was a nice

0:43:57.833,0:44:00.233
nice place to go you know I had a nice flat

0:44:00.466,0:44:04.066
uh on on the beach there and I had a nice little space

0:44:04.066,0:44:06.700
at this clubhouse that was 150 years old

0:44:06.700,0:44:08.166
and it was old and kind of colonial

0:44:08.166,0:44:10.433
and I used to have my tea and butter cake

0:44:10.533,0:44:12.733
and I used to go and get get the guys to

0:44:12.866,0:44:16.566
you know you know but but well I guess you know

0:44:16.866,0:44:19.033
go and buy me fruit and veg

0:44:19.100,0:44:21.066
and then I would bring it to to the club

0:44:21.066,0:44:23.366
and then they would cut it all so you know it it

0:44:23.366,0:44:25.833
yeah it's a great time but it was kind of challenging

0:44:26.066,0:44:29.433
uh in terms of of the construction and then you know we

0:44:29.533,0:44:31.833
we probably got about 85% done with

0:44:31.833,0:44:33.533
with with with the holes and with the tees

0:44:33.533,0:44:34.700
and then and then the the rain

0:44:34.700,0:44:37.033
started and of course that that became a bit of a mess

0:44:37.033,0:44:37.833
um

0:44:38.166,0:44:38.933
for for

0:44:38.933,0:44:41.733
a while but yeah you know we eventually got it done

0:44:43.166,0:44:44.833
yes it caused a huge amount of erosion

0:44:45.833,0:44:46.633
the

0:44:47.166,0:44:51.333
uh well not not so much uh erosion you know the the

0:44:51.600,0:44:53.933
the issue we had there was that uh

0:44:53.933,0:44:56.833
it was it was very clay heavy soil

0:44:57.100,0:44:58.866
um so we had machines

0:44:58.933,0:45:01.233
getting stuck and it was hard to do shaping

0:45:01.233,0:45:02.333
and dump trucks getting

0:45:02.333,0:45:04.066
stuck so we had you know excavators

0:45:04.066,0:45:07.600
behind them pushing them out of all these MUD MUD traps

0:45:08.366,0:45:10.833
no not not much much uh erosion actually

0:45:10.833,0:45:13.366
a place where we had a lot of erosion was uh

0:45:13.366,0:45:15.266
Vietnam actually in uh Lanka

0:45:15.266,0:45:17.500
you know they had a few serious storms there and

0:45:17.500,0:45:19.866
and that was a sand site um

0:45:20.133,0:45:22.066
and we had big big sections of sand

0:45:22.066,0:45:23.100
you know move quickly

0:45:23.100,0:45:25.533
there you know sand sand is a great great medium

0:45:25.800,0:45:26.966
to towards a Bill golf

0:45:26.966,0:45:30.333
but it's a shit medium to to to obviously grow golf um

0:45:30.533,0:45:35.333
you know and and an arts in Vietnam where you have

0:45:35.333,0:45:36.833
you or at least arts in Asia

0:45:36.833,0:45:38.833
where where you have some serious serious weather

0:45:38.833,0:45:41.000
you know um if you're not

0:45:41.133,0:45:43.600
grassing or you don't have grass established

0:45:43.766,0:45:46.466
and it's exposed and you have the heavy heavy uh

0:45:46.466,0:45:48.733
rainfall there you know and it's you know it's

0:45:48.733,0:45:51.766
it's seriously heavy you know you you could lose

0:45:51.766,0:45:54.033
thousands of cubes of wood so dirt of these sand

0:45:54.066,0:45:56.266
so yeah I mean you know Sri Lanka what was well

0:45:56.266,0:45:57.033
what was tougher

0:45:57.033,0:45:59.233
in in the sense that that the water just didn't drain

0:45:59.233,0:46:00.866
and it just kept on bloody raining

0:46:02.633,0:46:04.466
which which made it you know a lot lot

0:46:04.466,0:46:06.033
slow you know a lot lot slower

0:46:06.533,0:46:09.233
yeah very much so there's um

0:46:10.466,0:46:10.866
God

0:46:10.866,0:46:13.733
that I'm still computing the fact that you just bought

0:46:13.933,0:46:16.966
got a bunch of guys off the live train ha ha ha

0:46:17.366,0:46:20.433
you know
shit man so I'm not sure whether I should tell that

0:46:20.433,0:46:21.900
that story you know I told my

0:46:21.900,0:46:24.266
my team that and they and they laugh

0:46:24.500,0:46:26.166
but that's a true true story and yeah

0:46:26.166,0:46:28.500
again I mean that's I mean that's the one thing that

0:46:28.500,0:46:29.033
that I've learnt

0:46:29.033,0:46:31.366
the most I think by by working in these

0:46:31.366,0:46:32.566
in these challenging

0:46:32.566,0:46:34.766
places is that you gotta make make a plan

0:46:34.766,0:46:37.966
and make a plan quickly you know and I think think

0:46:38.233,0:46:40.366
I think that if I just worked in North America

0:46:40.366,0:46:42.933
or in Europe I probably been a bit more spoon fed

0:46:42.933,0:46:44.966
and when you know the shit hits the fan

0:46:45.033,0:46:46.933
it might have taken me a bit bit longer

0:46:47.033,0:46:49.333
you know so now now I don't get as stressed

0:46:49.333,0:46:51.433
if if something goes down cause I'm like well

0:46:51.533,0:46:53.900
it can't be any bloody worse than you know what would

0:46:53.900,0:46:54.500
what would went

0:46:54.500,0:46:56.966
went down in bloody Sri Lanka or Indonesia or

0:46:56.966,0:46:57.866
shit wherever

0:46:58.266,0:47:01.366
do you find do you find that um South Africans

0:47:02.266,0:47:05.100
I've just for some reason I've looked

0:47:05.100,0:47:07.666
into this there's quite a few golf courses out

0:47:07.700,0:47:11.166
in the modern new builds that would be in Asia or um

0:47:11.766,0:47:13.366
Turkey or wherever

0:47:13.366,0:47:15.233
a lot of South Africans have been involved in those

0:47:15.233,0:47:20.433
constructions is that because of there's a ring fence

0:47:20.433,0:47:25.833
of American and UK architects or in kind of in the

0:47:26.033,0:47:27.233
mature markets

0:47:27.233,0:47:30.133
well I mean in terms of of of workers I mean

0:47:30.666,0:47:33.566
I mean South Africans tend to be quite quite good

0:47:33.633,0:47:37.966
chameleons by that I mean they they tend to adjust to

0:47:37.966,0:47:41.166
certain environments fairly quickly and fairly easy

0:47:41.533,0:47:43.000
you know they're

0:47:43.166,0:47:45.766
they're they're very hard hard working uh

0:47:46.100,0:47:50.466
you know so you know so that that helps uh and I guess

0:47:50.566,0:47:51.666
I guess you know there's

0:47:51.666,0:47:54.533
probably not as many opportunities in South Africa

0:47:54.533,0:47:55.700
as is there are abroad

0:47:55.700,0:47:58.200
so when they get the opportunity you know it's

0:47:58.600,0:48:00.066
you know you know they're

0:48:00.066,0:48:02.100
you know they they would just grab it um

0:48:02.100,0:48:03.433
I mean I've got two South Africans

0:48:03.433,0:48:05.633
who work for for for me based based out

0:48:05.633,0:48:07.066
uh in Cape Town and they're absolutely

0:48:07.066,0:48:09.466
brilliant and I send them around the world uh

0:48:09.500,0:48:12.300
and you know and they and they can fit in very very

0:48:12.300,0:48:13.800
I mean very very quickly um

0:48:13.966,0:48:16.366
and you know they're yeah you know

0:48:16.900,0:48:17.666
they're uh

0:48:17.666,0:48:19.766
listen I'm not gonna say that they're tougher than

0:48:19.766,0:48:22.300
my other work you know other guys because

0:48:22.300,0:48:23.466
you know she is my

0:48:24.033,0:48:26.833
my what's your team's good um but they

0:48:26.833,0:48:29.366
yeah you know it doesn't take them long to adjust

0:48:29.533,0:48:31.866
and they don't mind about working you know

0:48:32.133,0:48:34.433
16 hours a day for seven days a week

0:48:34.466,0:48:37.166
and yeah you know you know they don't complain

0:48:37.166,0:48:38.433
and they're good and they're tough

0:48:38.433,0:48:39.666
and they're you know they they

0:48:40.133,0:48:41.700
they they they got a great great

0:48:41.700,0:48:45.866
attitude so I think think that that helps um you know

0:48:45.866,0:48:47.566
and maybe maybe because they haven't been as

0:48:47.566,0:48:51.500
spoon fed as perhaps you know a lot of the west

0:48:51.500,0:48:53.566
west of the world you know and that's gonna sound bad

0:48:53.933,0:48:57.166
but it's but it's but it's probably true on a

0:48:57.466,0:49:00.600
on a different note if you met yourself 25 years ago

0:49:00.633,0:49:05.166
in DC or London what would you tell yourself oh wow wow

0:49:05.166,0:49:07.633
so I've done so much I've done so much travel

0:49:07.633,0:49:08.366
I mean I've done

0:49:08.366,0:49:10.833
70 countries but I haven't really enjoyed

0:49:11.433,0:49:13.900
a lot of that travel and that's because I've just flown in

0:49:13.900,0:49:15.300
gone to site and left

0:49:15.300,0:49:17.566
and I think think that I would say to to myself

0:49:17.566,0:49:22.200
just just spend a bit more time enjoying yourself and

0:49:22.333,0:49:24.300
you know taking in the sights and sounds

0:49:24.300,0:49:28.066
and you know maybe maybe uh yeah you know um

0:49:28.566,0:49:31.233
I mean that would certainly be one um

0:49:31.700,0:49:34.933
I think uh what would be another one um

0:49:35.933,0:49:38.266
you know I mean patience you know there's

0:49:38.266,0:49:40.033
there's been times where I've where I've obviously

0:49:40.033,0:49:41.866
tried to push things too too quickly and

0:49:41.866,0:49:43.166
and I think you know I mean I think

0:49:43.166,0:49:45.366
think that if you have a a process and

0:49:46.300,0:49:47.733
uh you know you kind of

0:49:47.733,0:49:49.733
stick stick by it and you're positive

0:49:49.733,0:49:51.666
and and that you know you know

0:49:51.766,0:49:54.266
you know you're gonna do do fine um

0:49:55.233,0:49:56.900
yeah I you know I think think just

0:49:56.900,0:49:58.233
you know you know time

0:49:58.500,0:50:01.366
I mean when when I sit here here now and with my team

0:50:01.366,0:50:03.466
and me being almost 50 um

0:50:03.533,0:50:05.566
and a lot of the guys around me are

0:50:05.633,0:50:08.900
you know late 20s 30s and I think man you know I'm

0:50:08.900,0:50:10.133
I'm more than halfway through

0:50:10.133,0:50:12.000
through my my life I'm you know probably

0:50:12.166,0:50:15.133
whatever it is two two thirds of of the way through

0:50:15.366,0:50:17.733
you know I probably probably should have yeah

0:50:17.733,0:50:18.633
you know spent

0:50:18.633,0:50:21.566
a bit more time enjoying things very versus just being

0:50:21.666,0:50:23.933
pretty pretty full on um so I think

0:50:23.933,0:50:24.833
think that would be

0:50:24.833,0:50:27.233
be the the one just kind of you know take out

0:50:27.233,0:50:28.866
a bit more time and and

0:50:28.866,0:50:31.133
enjoy things versus just being so

0:50:31.633,0:50:33.966
focused on kind of moving forward

0:50:34.500,0:50:36.700
no it's fantastic so now so now

0:50:36.700,0:50:38.933
so now I'm actually doing a lot of more of that so for

0:50:38.933,0:50:40.200
instance I was in uh

0:50:40.733,0:50:45.600
Madeira last month um and versus flying right back

0:50:45.766,0:50:48.066
I was like no I'm I'm gonna fly into the the Azores

0:50:48.066,0:50:50.000
cause I've always been keen to see Furness

0:50:50.866,0:50:52.033
um which is I think an old

0:50:52.033,0:50:55.066
Mackenzie Ross course he did with Sir Turnberry and um

0:50:55.100,0:50:59.833
so obviously I've I reached out to uh the folks who

0:50:59.833,0:51:00.833
who run that golf course

0:51:00.833,0:51:03.500
which is the government and I said hey I'm gonna come through you know

0:51:03.500,0:51:04.733
can you introduce

0:51:04.733,0:51:07.433
me to the guys I like to spend a few few days there and

0:51:07.433,0:51:09.933
and that's exactly what what I did I flew in

0:51:09.933,0:51:12.333
I had I think four days I rented a car I drove

0:51:12.333,0:51:14.066
around the island I went and saw the two golf

0:51:14.066,0:51:16.333
courses I just took in the sights and sounds and

0:51:16.333,0:51:18.066
it was fun yeah

0:51:18.300,0:51:19.633
what did you think of the golf course

0:51:20.966,0:51:23.333
I liked it a lot like so you know

0:51:23.333,0:51:25.733
you know cheaper is the one thing about these

0:51:25.766,0:51:27.700
you know when when you think about these old

0:51:27.700,0:51:28.866
these very old school golf

0:51:28.866,0:51:31.733
courses and you know Furness Murielia

0:51:32.066,0:51:33.666
you know places like like that

0:51:33.833,0:51:35.800
you know they don't have a lot of money

0:51:35.900,0:51:37.566
so they haven't changed a lot

0:51:37.566,0:51:39.233
so it's got a lot of character

0:51:39.233,0:51:43.133
and a you know and and there's a lot of fun and um

0:51:43.133,0:51:45.666
yeah so when you kind of play it it's very old school

0:51:45.833,0:51:48.900
and you know you know the the the greens are wild

0:51:48.900,0:51:51.600
I mean I suppose if they had had a lot of money

0:51:51.700,0:51:52.933
they would have got some

0:51:53.133,0:51:54.566
someone in there and kind of you know

0:51:54.566,0:51:56.933
flatten the greens and made it a bit more

0:51:57.100,0:52:00.166
you know kind of like rule based and you know

0:52:00.166,0:52:00.966
I don't know

0:52:01.133,0:52:03.733
what's the word you know so so it's it's it's it's

0:52:03.833,0:52:05.066
it's kind of non rule based

0:52:05.066,0:52:06.633
and it's a bit you know you know

0:52:06.966,0:52:08.900
there's like things there that that you wouldn't do

0:52:08.900,0:52:10.866
today but it's cool and because they have

0:52:10.866,0:52:13.133
you know they haven't had money to change it

0:52:13.133,0:52:16.033
you know you have these kind of a really cool routing

0:52:16.033,0:52:18.900
and then you have some really cool greens and holes and

0:52:18.900,0:52:20.066
you know you got the

0:52:20.166,0:52:22.166
the kind of sights and sounds of was it furness

0:52:22.166,0:52:25.566
around you which is which is really cool um and then in

0:52:25.766,0:52:27.066
the other course there you know they

0:52:27.066,0:52:29.566
you know they have all these rock walls and ruins and

0:52:29.966,0:52:31.033
you know I love that

0:52:31.033,0:52:32.833
you know I really love that so they have a really

0:52:32.833,0:52:33.966
strong sense of belonging

0:52:33.966,0:52:35.666
and again I mean that's because they

0:52:36.033,0:52:39.766
well I mean you know I think it's quite cool design

0:52:39.766,0:52:42.266
that they've kind of incorporated a lot of that within the golf

0:52:42.266,0:52:42.766
and

0:52:42.766,0:52:45.366
it just you know they haven't had had money to kind of

0:52:45.633,0:52:47.366
you know you know change things

0:52:47.366,0:52:48.633
what do you think is the most important

0:52:48.633,0:52:51.033
thing to you when you're designing a golf course

0:52:51.033,0:52:53.066
sense of place I mean I think um

0:52:53.766,0:52:57.533
you know for me um you know

0:52:57.533,0:52:59.233
I would want want my wife

0:52:59.233,0:53:01.366
my kids to walk the course and enjoy it

0:53:01.366,0:53:03.966
and you know as much as I love Shenandoah Hills

0:53:04.433,0:53:06.966
you know or baddy Saint Andrews I'm sure

0:53:06.966,0:53:08.500
sure that if they play that they'll go like well

0:53:08.500,0:53:09.433
you know or at least walk

0:53:09.433,0:53:10.733
through that they'll go like oh shit a brick

0:53:10.733,0:53:12.700
this is just you know I mean they

0:53:12.700,0:53:14.500
I mean they great great courses in terms of you know

0:53:14.500,0:53:17.033
strategy and and all all of that

0:53:17.033,0:53:19.166
but I just love you know the the kind of

0:53:19.166,0:53:20.733
the the sense of adventure

0:53:20.733,0:53:22.966
so again going back to Lanka going you know

0:53:22.966,0:53:25.133
you know looking at the course we're doing in

0:53:25.466,0:53:26.966
Madeira with all the rock walls

0:53:26.966,0:53:29.066
and the levadas and stuff you know just

0:53:29.066,0:53:30.633
just that well you know rooting

0:53:30.633,0:53:31.833
you know clearly you know

0:53:31.833,0:53:34.466
the route taking you to all the cool spots

0:53:34.833,0:53:36.666
and then just just you know incorporating

0:53:36.666,0:53:38.766
all of that within the golf you know be it

0:53:38.833,0:53:41.033
on on the site or off the site you know and

0:53:41.233,0:53:42.500
again you know it'd be a place

0:53:42.500,0:53:44.700
where I could walk with my wife and she goes like wow

0:53:44.700,0:53:47.333
that's cool what great views and I love the rock walls

0:53:47.333,0:53:50.833
and you know oh there's a mango tree there let

0:53:50.866,0:53:52.633
you know let me just grab grab a bit of mango

0:53:52.633,0:53:54.833
actually I was actually speaking with um

0:53:54.833,0:53:56.433
a golfer the other day and I

0:53:56.433,0:53:58.900
you know and I said to them oh I used to play a lot of golf at

0:53:58.900,0:54:00.000
Durban Country Club

0:54:00.466,0:54:02.700
and he said to me he said oh I love Durban Country

0:54:02.700,0:54:03.666
Club because there's all these

0:54:03.666,0:54:05.800
bloody banana trees there and bloody monkeys

0:54:06.333,0:54:06.900
and I was like oh

0:54:06.900,0:54:08.933
okay you know so so you didn't like like the course

0:54:08.933,0:54:11.566
but but that was the thing that that stuck with with

0:54:11.566,0:54:13.533
with him was that hey you know you know all the kind of

0:54:13.533,0:54:14.800
Nat naturalism

0:54:14.866,0:54:17.266
and the kind of wildlife was really cool

0:54:17.366,0:54:21.233
um and that that to me is probably probably well it I I

0:54:21.833,0:54:23.766
it it certainly not probably it's the most

0:54:24.233,0:54:25.466
you know important thing

0:54:26.066,0:54:26.500
yeah

0:54:26.500,0:54:29.100
the uniqueness of environment you can build a golf course and really

0:54:29.100,0:54:31.800
build something experience yeah 100%

0:54:31.933,0:54:34.866
you know and I've seen some really really cool ones

0:54:34.866,0:54:36.600
around the world I mean if I think about it

0:54:36.733,0:54:38.066
I mean a place like Burma

0:54:38.066,0:54:40.766
you know I went out to Burma James um

0:54:41.633,0:54:44.566
OK I mean it'll be more than 10 years ago I you know I

0:54:44.733,0:54:45.533
um

0:54:45.900,0:54:49.466
I used to do a lot of speaking events and uh

0:54:49.466,0:54:52.033
the RNA did this Asian

0:54:52.666,0:54:55.366
tour where where we did like Delhi and

0:54:55.466,0:55:00.066
Tokyo and Seoul and um and I made the mistake

0:55:00.500,0:55:03.866
saying to Dominic Wall who's still the head of bbrna

0:55:03.866,0:55:05.766
for Asia Pacific I said oh

0:55:05.833,0:55:08.600
you know I'm I've always been fascinated by Burma

0:55:08.633,0:55:10.666
you know and I've heard that there's a few golf courses

0:55:10.666,0:55:13.266
there and he said oh don't don't worry Paul I'll uh

0:55:13.266,0:55:14.200
arrange it all

0:55:14.466,0:55:17.633
for you and there's and there's 130 golf clubs in Burma

0:55:17.866,0:55:21.333
um which which you know which kind of like blew me

0:55:21.333,0:55:22.900
Mimi away and

0:55:22.900,0:55:24.500
anyway a few few months months later

0:55:24.500,0:55:27.366
he had arranged for the Burmese or whatever

0:55:27.633,0:55:30.700
what's a Myanmar Golf Association to meet me in Yangon

0:55:30.700,0:55:34.200
you know the old Rang Rangoon and we flew um

0:55:34.866,0:55:36.633
so we so we looked at golf

0:55:36.633,0:55:38.566
courses around Yangon you know

0:55:38.566,0:55:40.666
I think I think they're all Yangon I think it is

0:55:40.666,0:55:41.666
which is which is

0:55:41.666,0:55:44.866
more than you know 100 years old and then we flew up to Mandalay

0:55:45.100,0:55:46.833
and then we flew into the Old Town

0:55:46.833,0:55:49.400
Bagan which is unbelievable I mean if you

0:55:49.566,0:55:51.033
if you haven't seen Bagan

0:55:51.266,0:55:53.433
it's kind of one of the the great places

0:55:53.466,0:55:55.133
in the in the world I mean you you would

0:55:55.133,0:55:58.233
so fly in and they got about 5,000 ancient pagodas

0:55:58.533,0:55:59.666
there they have these like golf

0:55:59.666,0:56:01.233
courses that are just the worst

0:56:01.233,0:56:02.633
maintained golf courses in the world

0:56:02.633,0:56:05.033
but you're playing alongside these ancient pagodas

0:56:05.033,0:56:07.066
and you've got these volcanoes

0:56:07.366,0:56:09.166
you know out of my pump pop pop

0:56:09.433,0:56:10.433
and all these kind of weird

0:56:10.433,0:56:12.400
weird kind of cool cool things and

0:56:12.566,0:56:14.833
you know and I look back at that and I'm like wow

0:56:14.833,0:56:17.700
I mean that was just so cool or you know you kind of go and play golf

0:56:17.700,0:56:19.366
in South Africa

0:56:19.366,0:56:22.533
I mean you go and play golf at skukuza or Sabi River or

0:56:22.533,0:56:24.933
bloody elements and you got you know electric fences

0:56:24.933,0:56:26.466
around the bloody greens cause you got

0:56:26.466,0:56:28.966
crocodiles and bloody you know

0:56:29.533,0:56:30.533
hippos in the uh

0:56:30.533,0:56:32.533
you know the the baddie baddie water features

0:56:32.533,0:56:36.033
and you know you got zebras and giraffes walking across

0:56:36.033,0:56:38.633
so yeah you know so that's kind of stuff that I love

0:56:39.500,0:56:40.700
yeah yeah I

0:56:40.700,0:56:43.866
I completely understand that I played golf in Mathega

0:56:43.966,0:56:45.100
and I never in South Africa

0:56:45.100,0:56:47.766
and this is actually a Tom Dux store story actually

0:56:47.766,0:56:51.066
I I don't know if Tom's been been on your um and

0:56:51.066,0:56:53.033
we haven't had Tom we had a lot of his disciples

0:56:53.033,0:56:54.566
so we've had yeah so what's

0:56:54.566,0:56:56.733
it Tom you know so what's it Tom Tom did

0:56:56.933,0:56:57.433
you know what's it

0:56:57.433,0:56:59.733
Tom Tom does his book what's his book called The

0:57:01.866,0:57:05.333
and
he reached out to me and stuff and you know about doing

0:57:05.333,0:57:06.033
some stuff

0:57:06.033,0:57:09.000
in Africa and I said listen Tom I said I'm going down to Kenya

0:57:09.433,0:57:10.733
the the Kenyan Golfing Union

0:57:10.733,0:57:13.600
have invited me to go down and do a speaking event

0:57:13.633,0:57:14.666
down there I said well why don't

0:57:14.666,0:57:16.800
why don't you come down to Kenya with me

0:57:16.833,0:57:20.133
and we'll also go into northern Zambia and we'll

0:57:20.133,0:57:21.466
and we'll and we'll see something

0:57:21.466,0:57:23.266
golf cause I've always been keen to see

0:57:23.366,0:57:26.366
in particular the courses in northern Zambia and in the

0:57:26.366,0:57:28.566
you know the old Copper Belt region

0:57:29.666,0:57:30.833
so you know I mean I mean

0:57:30.833,0:57:33.100
great great on him you know I would have met him in uh

0:57:33.100,0:57:34.933
in was it Nairobi and we spent

0:57:34.933,0:57:37.233
yeah we spent about 10 10 days we

0:57:37.433,0:57:39.533
you know the uh the Kenyan Golf

0:57:40.033,0:57:42.733
Union took us out to all of the golf courses around

0:57:42.733,0:57:43.633
uh around was it

0:57:43.666,0:57:45.866
you know that in Nairobi Karen Golf club

0:57:46.433,0:57:48.833
uh Sigona Lemarue

0:57:49.900,0:57:52.033
uh the Railway Club um

0:57:52.366,0:57:54.833
which was great I mean I think what's at saigone

0:57:54.833,0:57:56.966
could be a Tom Simpson course I mean that's certainly

0:57:56.966,0:57:59.700
the ground zero for Kakuia grass

0:57:59.700,0:58:01.133
I mean that's where Kakuia

0:58:01.133,0:58:02.933
grass come comes from I mean that's in the

0:58:02.933,0:58:04.066
district of Kakuia

0:58:04.066,0:58:06.333
and that's really cool cause you gotta think all those tea

0:58:06.500,0:58:08.733
plantations around um

0:58:09.266,0:58:10.566
and then and then from there we

0:58:10.566,0:58:13.033
we flew into northern Zambia and were taken

0:58:13.033,0:58:14.933
around to a few of those really cool

0:58:14.933,0:58:17.400
courses there in Dola in Kanna

0:58:17.933,0:58:19.633
um I kind of full

0:58:19.633,0:58:21.033
forget get a few of the other names

0:58:21.033,0:58:22.466
but I mean those were these kind of

0:58:22.466,0:58:25.000
you know cause northern zambias got these massive big

0:58:25.100,0:58:29.933
mines um uh open cast mines and all these expats

0:58:29.933,0:58:30.566
that would come

0:58:30.566,0:58:32.166
come in would kind of stay in all these

0:58:32.166,0:58:33.433
all these kind of compounds

0:58:33.433,0:58:36.033
which had all these country clubs and tennis courts

0:58:36.233,0:58:39.866
and and and a really cool old school uh clubs

0:58:40.133,0:58:42.466
uh so you would so you would drive through the towns

0:58:42.466,0:58:44.666
and it was like potholes and a bit kind of manic

0:58:44.833,0:58:46.633
and then you would get into the doors

0:58:46.633,0:58:48.866
and I'll be like what the hell this is like you know

0:58:48.866,0:58:49.633
gustational

0:58:49.633,0:58:52.466
and no no I mean what's the seriously I mean uh uh

0:58:52.866,0:58:54.766
you just gotta look up in Cana

0:58:54.966,0:58:57.300
you know to see where what I mean I mean

0:58:57.300,0:58:58.566
you know it's really cool cool course

0:58:58.566,0:59:01.233
and a lot of wildlife and you know well maintained

0:59:01.233,0:59:04.366
fairways and greens and um yeah you know you you

0:59:04.366,0:59:06.500
you would have felt like you were in Africa

0:59:06.500,0:59:07.433
too cause it's just very

0:59:07.433,0:59:09.466
very open and you could just see the kind of sir sir

0:59:09.933,0:59:11.166
banner and stuff and

0:59:11.166,0:59:13.966
yeah you know Tom Tom was a great sport I mean we had

0:59:14.066,0:59:16.766
I think we had two or three flat tires and

0:59:17.100,0:59:18.033
stopped by cops

0:59:18.033,0:59:20.733
and paying off cops and stuff and he was yeah he was

0:59:20.733,0:59:23.000
he was a yep he was great

0:59:24.066,0:59:26.766
so there's a there's something very special about uh

0:59:27.500,0:59:30.133
Africa and just the way you have to deal with things and I can

0:59:30.133,0:59:31.166
imagine for someone

0:59:31.166,0:59:33.133
Tom's done a lot of travelling well what's it Tom Tom

0:59:33.300,0:59:37.166
Tom Tom couldn't bloody drive a bloody manual car

0:59:37.166,0:59:39.266
and of course out there it was on the well

0:59:39.266,0:59:43.366
I'm sure she'll say he can but uh out there is on the

0:59:43.366,0:59:44.733
what what's it the left hand

0:59:44.733,0:59:47.066
side of the the road and of course the

0:59:47.366,0:59:49.633
sticks are on the right side and I can drive down

0:59:49.633,0:59:51.766
manuals so I was driving a belly manual

0:59:52.100,0:59:54.933
uh you know and um yeah I mean I

0:59:55.466,0:59:58.000
which was which was quite quite funny but no

0:59:59.233,1:00:01.333
yeah it was fun I mean you know and

1:00:01.866,1:00:02.233
again

1:00:02.233,1:00:05.033
I mean that's stuff that I love and I think think

1:00:05.166,1:00:06.866
it was I'm sure it was a lot

1:00:06.866,1:00:09.300
easier for him because I kind of knew the scene

1:00:09.300,1:00:12.966
and you know the food and how to eat the food and

1:00:13.033,1:00:15.633
maybe there were things there that he stressed about

1:00:15.633,1:00:20.033
that I said you know don't stress about um you know

1:00:20.033,1:00:22.266
um I think think the biggest stress there was

1:00:22.266,1:00:24.733
really was um it was a big

1:00:24.733,1:00:27.866
big malaria zone at least in northern Zambia and then

1:00:27.866,1:00:29.166
around about the time

1:00:29.166,1:00:32.666
about 100 miles away in in the Congo they had an Ebola

1:00:33.333,1:00:35.166
outbreak and of course you know

1:00:35.266,1:00:38.366
Ebola doesn't know yup borders just as like uh

1:00:38.433,1:00:39.366
just like with some malaria

1:00:39.366,1:00:41.033
so you know so those are things you know you need

1:00:41.033,1:00:42.800
need to kind of watch out for but

1:00:42.833,1:00:45.733
yeah I mean it was all good no it was great he had fun

1:00:45.733,1:00:46.600
I think

1:00:47.533,1:00:48.633
ha ha ha I can imagine

1:00:48.633,1:00:50.833
there would have been some incredible conversations

1:00:50.833,1:00:51.633
that would have

1:00:52.100,1:00:54.733
on those long drives yeah

1:00:54.733,1:00:56.733
I mean what's the Tom Tom's a great guy

1:00:56.733,1:00:59.166
in in the sense that he's very very open book

1:00:59.166,1:01:01.466
you know um and I enjoy

1:01:01.466,1:01:04.233
that you know and I'm very much the same I mean I just say it

1:01:04.466,1:01:06.566
ha ha I see it and you know

1:01:06.566,1:01:08.566
you know he's really cool when it comes to sharing

1:01:08.566,1:01:11.166
information and sharing ideas

1:01:11.166,1:01:14.266
and and you know listening and you know I guess

1:01:14.500,1:01:15.466
you know his feed

1:01:15.466,1:01:18.366
feed feedback's great and yeah just just just a really

1:01:18.366,1:01:20.333
you know really cool cool guy it was it

1:01:21.500,1:01:24.533
do the whistle stuff with you know on these whistle

1:01:24.533,1:01:27.100
trips
you know and we and we still stay in touch in fact I

1:01:27.100,1:01:30.266
we've we've we've just completed a project in

1:01:30.266,1:01:31.300
Paraparumu

1:01:31.300,1:01:35.166
in New Zealand which has a great golf course there um

1:01:35.633,1:01:37.666
a paddock course and two of my guys

1:01:37.666,1:01:38.566
wanted to play golf

1:01:38.566,1:01:40.466
and so I just reached out to Tom I said Tom

1:01:40.466,1:01:42.433
can you just arrange some golf so he arranged a Cape

1:01:42.433,1:01:44.233
kidnappers for them teriyaki

1:01:44.566,1:01:48.100
and I could have been Arrow Town I think anyway

1:01:48.100,1:01:50.333
you know so he you know so he's always good at that

1:01:51.266,1:01:54.000
yeah uh so yeah so um

1:01:54.733,1:01:55.500
yeah fun

1:01:55.500,1:01:57.933
I mean you know those those are all trips that I love

1:01:57.933,1:02:01.433
and and and cherish the most you know and

1:02:01.766,1:02:03.066
and just going on those trips

1:02:03.066,1:02:05.233
with someone else I think it's really really cool

1:02:05.233,1:02:06.366
you know cause I've been on

1:02:06.366,1:02:07.933
on a number of trips by myself

1:02:08.433,1:02:11.166
and I'm like oh it'd be really cool to kind of share this with you know

1:02:11.166,1:02:12.400
buddy someone I mean my

1:02:12.400,1:02:14.866
I mean my wife's not not that that keen um

1:02:14.933,1:02:15.900
you know my wife uh

1:02:15.900,1:02:17.233
keeps on saying to me to just just

1:02:17.233,1:02:19.833
just be careful and make me sure I don't come back with

1:02:19.966,1:02:23.233
with a a baddie parasite or you know something but uh

1:02:24.100,1:02:26.500
you know what I don't don't do much of those anymore

1:02:26.500,1:02:27.366
I mean I now

1:02:27.366,1:02:30.366
send my teams out to these places you know and they

1:02:30.466,1:02:32.733
and they keen keen to go so

1:02:33.333,1:02:36.033
yeah I can imagine sounds like an absolute adventure

1:02:36.133,1:02:38.866
especially if you got a bunch of guys are 25 30 running

1:02:38.866,1:02:39.666
around

1:02:40.033,1:02:43.133
I've been yeah all over that like a rash when I was

1:02:43.366,1:02:46.433
yeah well I would have took out um so

1:02:47.100,1:02:48.266
again before

1:02:48.433,1:02:52.366
Covid we were doing some work out in Dakar Bangladesh

1:02:52.933,1:02:56.466
uh and I took out one of my guys there and he was

1:02:56.533,1:02:58.133
petrified but of course um

1:02:58.466,1:03:01.633
when we got there I mean just you know we had guys I

1:03:01.900,1:03:04.800
I have to send you some some pic pictures but you know

1:03:04.966,1:03:06.133
we had guys walking

1:03:06.133,1:03:09.133
behind us with umbrellas and chairs and it it was like

1:03:09.133,1:03:11.533
it was like you know shit man you know 100 years

1:03:11.533,1:03:13.800
ago we had like guys coming with coconuts

1:03:14.033,1:03:16.433
and peeling our Betty oranges and uh

1:03:16.833,1:03:19.666
yeah please send me photos of that I will

1:03:20.333,1:03:23.100
that
make a great I'm having a great great one with myself

1:03:23.100,1:03:27.433
and the clients uh the his his name was

1:03:27.433,1:03:28.666
the Brigadier Salam Akhtar

1:03:28.666,1:03:30.766
who was probably the second or third most

1:03:31.100,1:03:32.566
important person in Bangladesh

1:03:32.566,1:03:35.266
he was the head of the UN during the war in

1:03:35.533,1:03:39.966
in Bosnia in in the whatever the 90s wonderful guy um

1:03:40.233,1:03:43.433
and I got a picture of him and me sitting there

1:03:43.433,1:03:46.066
and the shapers are out doing the work

1:03:46.833,1:03:50.766
and there's him there and me on two chairs

1:03:50.766,1:03:52.966
and a guy behind with an umbrella

1:03:53.233,1:03:55.500
behind us both and then there's a guy there with like

1:03:55.500,1:03:58.800
some food it was like anyway but yeah it is a

1:03:59.033,1:04:01.166
you know but those are all thing things that I love and

1:04:01.633,1:04:04.200
you know kind of yeah kind of cherish

1:04:04.666,1:04:07.266
I've got one last question for you that I always ask everyone

1:04:07.266,1:04:11.400
on their first pod and what's your top five favourite

1:04:11.433,1:04:14.533
golf courses so not the best your favourites

1:04:14.533,1:04:18.233
yeah West Sussex uh is my number one

1:04:18.666,1:04:20.933
um I love that that place um

1:04:22.133,1:04:24.300
Kawana in Japan just

1:04:24.300,1:04:26.166
just because I think that that's the best golf course

1:04:26.166,1:04:28.333
I've seen on a really tough parcel of land

1:04:31.033,1:04:32.833
Komati Port in

1:04:32.833,1:04:35.100
South Africa just because it's it's a nine hole course

1:04:35.100,1:04:38.033
and it's super natural and it's super African

1:04:38.033,1:04:38.633
cause you're right up

1:04:38.633,1:04:40.766
against the national park and you got wildlife running

1:04:40.766,1:04:41.933
around in fact you got a

1:04:41.933,1:04:43.300
you got the national park fence

1:04:43.300,1:04:45.933
right next to it and you got the Limpopo

1:04:45.933,1:04:47.433
River so you can stand there on the one

1:04:47.433,1:04:51.833
tee and you can see you know lines attacking you know

1:04:52.033,1:04:53.900
flipping giraffe and you can see crocodiles

1:04:53.900,1:04:55.266
coming up from from the

1:04:55.266,1:04:58.466
the you know bloody river and stuff so that's there

1:04:59.900,1:05:01.866
I like I like Shenandoah Hills

1:05:02.366,1:05:04.566
I guess for you know just the

1:05:04.566,1:05:06.766
you know kind of strategy and the land and

1:05:06.933,1:05:11.633
and you know how it looks um so that's four um

1:05:12.433,1:05:15.333
oh gosh what would be be be the fifth um

1:05:15.766,1:05:18.033
but I mean I like Royal County Down

1:05:18.033,1:05:20.500
I mean that was a place I think when

1:05:20.500,1:05:23.333
when I went to the first time I was probably the most blown

1:05:23.333,1:05:25.933
away by like wow this is cool and this is different

1:05:26.166,1:05:27.566
so probably those five

1:05:28.700,1:05:32.400
it's um that's the most eclectic group I've ever had

1:05:32.666,1:05:34.133
okay hahaha

1:05:34.633,1:05:38.166
so you want that really awful ones that that are often

1:05:38.500,1:05:39.833
bring up is a course

1:05:39.833,1:05:42.433
in the jungles of Indonesia in a place called Bogor

1:05:42.433,1:05:46.433
called Jagawari which is an old Peter Thomson course

1:05:46.533,1:05:48.466
and that's and that's awesome I can't believe

1:05:48.466,1:05:49.700
it would be cool and that's got

1:05:49.700,1:05:50.900
you know got these like massive

1:05:50.900,1:05:52.666
rivers running through it and

1:05:52.666,1:05:54.366
you you could just imagine pythons

1:05:54.366,1:05:56.233
coming out of the bush and

1:05:57.266,1:05:59.666
but
but that's a really cool cool cool one too that I've

1:05:59.900,1:06:00.700
you know

1:06:01.500,1:06:02.233
often on my head

1:06:02.233,1:06:04.766
and then one one more I guess sorry and this is 7

1:06:05.066,1:06:08.533
for like absolute absolute crazy uniqueness

1:06:08.766,1:06:12.666
would be nurelia in the tea plantations of Sri Lanka

1:06:12.666,1:06:15.066
you know so what would happen there was you know

1:06:15.266,1:06:16.033
the English built

1:06:16.033,1:06:18.766
this golf course 130 years ago and they definitely

1:06:18.766,1:06:21.933
didn't have any money uh to do work uh

1:06:22.266,1:06:26.700
and um so nothing's changed uh except

1:06:26.700,1:06:30.366
the city's now got bigger and it's now up against the

1:06:30.366,1:06:33.100
golf and it's now you know intertwine

1:06:33.100,1:06:34.300
within the golf so you got holes

1:06:34.300,1:06:36.966
there I mean I think about the fourth hole I think it is or the fifth hole

1:06:36.966,1:06:38.666
where you where you hit your tee

1:06:38.666,1:06:42.366
shot over the main road into the but the national park

1:06:42.366,1:06:44.100
you know so so so I guess

1:06:44.100,1:06:45.900
part of the the golf course has kind of also

1:06:45.900,1:06:46.666
become like a park

1:06:46.666,1:06:48.666
where folks play cricket and badminton

1:06:48.700,1:06:51.033
and then you right angle into the green

1:06:51.033,1:06:52.733
which is now surrounded by the city

1:06:52.966,1:06:54.566
so you got these five or six story

1:06:54.566,1:06:56.533
skyscrapers and they're right up against the Greek

1:06:56.533,1:06:57.266
so you know I

1:06:57.266,1:06:58.066
mean that's sort of stuff that

1:06:58.066,1:06:59.566
that you wouldn't see anywhere else

1:06:59.566,1:07:01.300
or certainly wouldn't be able to design

1:07:01.300,1:07:03.733
these days but that's a really cool cool one that also

1:07:04.166,1:07:06.966
uh you know I often often think about that's so unique

1:07:06.966,1:07:11.200
that's really cool I I really do uh want to

1:07:11.233,1:07:13.166
go out and explore these wonderful

1:07:13.633,1:07:17.366
oddities of golf yeah um yeah you know

1:07:17.466,1:07:18.333
there are so many golf

1:07:18.333,1:07:20.833
courses I mean that's the thing I mean you know yes I

1:07:20.833,1:07:23.333
you know you you guys do I'm sure a great great job

1:07:23.333,1:07:25.933
advertising some some unbelievable golf courses

1:07:26.100,1:07:28.433
but every golf course has a great story to tell

1:07:28.433,1:07:31.066
and you know there's whatever 30,000 golf

1:07:31.066,1:07:33.366
courses and and there's always something you can learn

1:07:33.966,1:07:34.900
from from a course

1:07:34.900,1:07:36.766
at least most most of them I would think uh

1:07:36.766,1:07:39.133
you know but certainly these these like ultra unique

1:07:39.133,1:07:41.633
ones too that are I mean they you know

1:07:41.700,1:07:43.666
you know they're really cool and certainly

1:07:43.666,1:07:46.233
certainly from my perspective too it's kind of like

1:07:46.233,1:07:47.666
it's almost given me the confidence

1:07:47.666,1:07:50.166
that I can kind of do a bit more kind of unique

1:07:50.166,1:07:51.800
wacky things because it's been done

1:07:52.100,1:07:53.700
whereas I think that if I hadn't

1:07:53.700,1:07:54.833
seen that I'll be like yeah

1:07:55.766,1:08:00.000
it's inspirational right so there's a

1:08:01.366,1:08:04.066
there's lots of different examples of that

1:08:04.366,1:08:09.866
that across golf historically you know you look at the

1:08:10.300,1:08:12.033
uh 18th at Saint Andrews

1:08:12.733,1:08:14.633
it's a great example of a golf hole

1:08:14.733,1:08:15.900
that no one would have built

1:08:15.900,1:08:17.433
that golf hole unless someone

1:08:17.633,1:08:19.366
bravely did it first yeah

1:08:19.633,1:08:21.100
yeah hundred percent hundred percent

1:08:21.100,1:08:23.700
you know you know there are so many great examples

1:08:23.700,1:08:25.966
in the first world if if I can use that

1:08:25.966,1:08:27.233
that that term I mean you look at the UK

1:08:27.233,1:08:30.100
Brancaster is a great one you know Rowells

1:08:30.100,1:08:31.533
Norfolk I mean that's pretty

1:08:31.533,1:08:33.300
pretty unique and different I mean that's pretty

1:08:33.300,1:08:34.100
unique and different

1:08:34.466,1:08:35.433
I mean I mean I

1:08:35.433,1:08:37.500
I don't know if it's still there but I mean when I went there

1:08:37.500,1:08:38.300
20 odd years

1:08:38.300,1:08:40.066
ago I mean it looked like it was gonna fall down

1:08:40.066,1:08:41.666
but you know the very fact that you walk

1:08:42.066,1:08:44.733
through the beach to get to the first hole in the first hole in the 18th

1:08:44.733,1:08:46.600
like crossing holes and then it's just like a

1:08:46.700,1:08:48.633
you know and that's it's it's cool you know there

1:08:48.633,1:08:50.433
you know there's all of those kind of cool examples

1:08:50.433,1:08:51.266
Hoy Lake

1:08:51.700,1:08:53.733
although that's been I think kind of dumbed down a bit

1:08:53.733,1:08:56.233
um you know but there's so many great

1:08:56.233,1:09:00.033
examples around the UK and the US and you know

1:09:00.266,1:09:03.233
so there's it's interesting of course you name our um

1:09:03.266,1:09:04.466
well this Hilux is

1:09:04.466,1:09:07.466
another example and West Sussex I know is an example

1:09:07.766,1:09:10.466
of um you ask someone their opinion

1:09:10.466,1:09:11.700
and they say they don't like it

1:09:11.700,1:09:13.566
their opinion isn't really worth much

1:09:14.100,1:09:14.900
and

1:09:16.766,1:09:17.466
that's someone

1:09:17.466,1:09:20.833
I've heard that a few times from people that if you don't like those golf courses

1:09:20.833,1:09:22.500
and you don't find something that you

1:09:22.500,1:09:25.033
enjoy in it then it means you're not looking at the golf

1:09:25.033,1:09:26.500
you're looking at the surrounds

1:09:26.500,1:09:28.866
and the mountains or the whatever or the

1:09:28.933,1:09:31.366
you want something spectacular rather than quality

1:09:31.733,1:09:32.533
that was quite

1:09:33.333,1:09:34.900
I mean and again sorry

1:09:34.900,1:09:37.100
sorry for for this but I mean I mean West West Sussex

1:09:37.100,1:09:41.033
is is a bit of a an outlayer because it's not you know

1:09:41.066,1:09:41.433
you know

1:09:41.433,1:09:43.900
next to Sunnydale and Saint George's Hill and Walton

1:09:43.900,1:09:45.666
Heath and you know it's kind of a bit

1:09:45.733,1:09:47.733
out of the way so if you didn't know

1:09:47.733,1:09:50.266
about it you probably would kind of miss it

1:09:50.333,1:09:53.533
but I recall my my good friend Nick Edmond

1:09:53.633,1:09:54.900
who's written many books

1:09:54.900,1:09:57.666
golf saying to me you know back back early on for

1:09:57.666,1:09:58.766
you need to go to West Sussex

1:09:58.766,1:10:00.433
I mean that's a really great bread space

1:10:00.433,1:10:03.500
and yeah you know that it is it's but but

1:10:03.500,1:10:06.133
but I can see how some p people can diss it I think it's a par

1:10:06.133,1:10:09.533
68 so you know if I think about some of the golf

1:10:09.533,1:10:10.733
people that I

1:10:10.733,1:10:13.533
speak speak to here you know if anything is not a par

1:10:13.533,1:10:16.900
72 it's it's shit it's got back to back par threes

1:10:16.900,1:10:18.666
there you know there's

1:10:18.933,1:10:21.200
I mean there's a ton of variety there I mean

1:10:21.666,1:10:24.100
you know it's each each scene is somewhat

1:10:24.100,1:10:26.500
different there's some water there's up and down holes

1:10:26.500,1:10:29.033
there's long holes short holes there's humps and bumps

1:10:29.066,1:10:31.333
trees no trees you know so

1:10:31.533,1:10:35.366
it you know to me it kind of epitomizes a place that I could play and

1:10:35.433,1:10:36.966
you know it's it's a really cool journey

1:10:36.966,1:10:38.733
through the property and it's visually

1:10:38.733,1:10:40.833
strong and there's so many cool little features

1:10:40.833,1:10:42.566
there that again that that my wife and kids

1:10:42.566,1:10:45.233
would I think go wow that's cool so yeah

1:10:45.366,1:10:46.666
and and then it's not

1:10:46.666,1:10:49.233
and then on top of that it's a good strategic

1:10:49.233,1:10:51.366
fist you know you know fist too you know they're

1:10:51.366,1:10:52.966
some strongholds that you gotta think well

1:10:52.966,1:10:55.233
that's great that's exactly what we look for and

1:10:55.300,1:10:55.766
and that

1:10:55.766,1:10:59.433
we rank it 31st in GPI or something like that so it's in the

1:10:59.433,1:11:00.500
it's right on that edge

1:11:00.500,1:11:03.033
whether it's in the top 100 or not in the world

1:11:03.500,1:11:06.733
and obviously there's beasts like raw

1:11:07.233,1:11:10.466
Saint George's or you know things that are just

1:11:10.966,1:11:12.200
are famous

1:11:13.366,1:11:15.600
for lots of different reasons you know

1:11:16.100,1:11:17.733
we should probably call it there

1:11:17.733,1:11:20.500
thank you very much Paul for coming on it's been an absolute

1:11:20.500,1:11:23.566
pleasure to hear a very unique

1:11:23.566,1:11:26.566
perspective on golf course architecture because of

1:11:26.566,1:11:29.633
your life experience and what you're doing now is very different to what

1:11:30.033,1:11:32.166
a guy trying to make it just making 18 holes

1:11:32.166,1:11:35.433
in the UK and America you know it's much more it's so

1:11:35.433,1:11:37.733
interesting it's fascinating so thank you very much

1:11:37.733,1:11:40.700
well thank thank you yeah I mean you know I do tend to

1:11:40.700,1:11:43.566
waffle a lot at least at least my team say

1:11:43.566,1:11:46.233
that so I hope if I haven't done too much waffling

1:11:46.333,1:11:47.100
and it's been fun

1:11:47.433,1:11:49.966
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