Episode 26: 2024 Preview - Part III

Welcome to the final instalment of our three-part series. In this episode, we shift our gaze from the past to the future as we look ahead to the great golf courses that will captivate players and fans alike in 2024. 

Part III of III 

The Top100 Clubhouse is brought to you by Eden Mill. Bringing the art of distilling back to St Andrews. 

Transcript

James Henderson
 0:00:00
 The Top 100 Clubhouse podcast is brought to you by Eden Mill. Bring the tradition of distilling whiskey and gin back to St Andrews, the home of golf. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Top 100 Clubhouse, the ultimate podcast for golf course enthusiasts worldwide. I'm your host, James Henderson, and we're about to embark on a journey through lush fairways and breathtaking landscapes, as well as delving deep into the minds of fascinating individuals from every corner of the golfing universe.

Get ready to explore the world's top golf courses through the eyes of those who know them best. 

Greetings golf enthusiasts and welcome to the final installment of our three-part series. In this episode, we shift our gaze from the past to the future as we look ahead to the great golf courses that will captivate players and fans alike in 2024. 

Simon Holt

So that's a good question if you mind, is just moving on from that James, because I don't want to get into an argument with David.

Simon Holt
 0:01:19
 Courses that David or you James are most looking forward to playing next year whether you have them penned in already penciled in

Simon Holt
 0:01:19
 They're still in your wish list and you haven't got a plan to it But David's you do have a few trips plans and where you look you've said Hirono But outside of Japan and Hirono, is there anywhere next year you're looking forward to? Get me started I'm gonna be there forever

David Davis
 0:01:34
 Lafoten forever. Lofoten links in Norway. I've been trying to get there for, I don't know, two

Simon Holt
 0:01:44
 or three years. We both tried to go together. Do you remember we both tried to go together during COVID and our flights got... Nick, I couldn't get into Norway, lost all my flights, but the air Norway or Norwegian air, whatever it is.

David Davis
 0:01:54
 Well, tell me when you're going. I'm desperate. That was actually SAS. We both had SAS. SAS, okay. And lost our tickets.

Simon Holt
 0:02:00
 Good. And do not edit at that. Let's not even shame them. They didn't give us our money

David Davis
 0:02:03
 back.

Simon Holt
 0:02:04
 I agree with that 100%. But James, obviously you interviewed Frode, is it Frode?

James Henderson
 0:02:09
 I called him Frode, Frode Hoff. And it was his family, it was a family business and his father started the idea even though his family weren't golfers.

Simon Holt
 0:02:19
 They own this beautiful state up in the north of Norway. Well, maybe we'll do our own little version of Top Gear golf and the three of us go up there with a camera and muck around

James Henderson
 0:02:31
 there's a great area is Norway Sweden because there's a lot of Architecture that's gone on that's completely untouched by people who are aren't within that sphere in Norway Sweden Finland There's golf architecture. Those guys haven't even really done anything outside those areas. Maybe a bit in Germany and Denmark, but The main big guys the main architects have never been to these areas Yet, there's it's almost like a micro sphere of golf architecture. That's not really been talked about Yeah, I mean here is it's on our top 100 and both top 100 golf courses and I say are you know?

Simon Holt
 0:03:05
 the one I'm involved with as well. But I do hear a few people saying spectacular place to go to, golf course is really cool, but off, much like you've just said about Ardfinn, David, like off the fairway is just like death. You know, there was a golf course that I went to once that was, you know, we came up with a strapline, you know, course X where pro Vs go to die, because it's just so brutal. I thought that was my driver face. Well, that as well. But no, I would like to go to there, so let's make that trip happen. But I know the place that David's really itching to get to and we're both itching to get to is the Lido.

David Davis
 0:03:54
 Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. I have had, you know, obviously I'm an American, as everybody can tell, but I've been living overseas for 30 years. I've only been to Wisconsin for golf one time, so I'm missing out. So there's a big Wisconsin trip that's been in the cards. It's been a long time coming. Now with Lido and Sedge Valley and Sand Valley, I haven't been to any of those places. So Lido is something that Golf Magazine highlighted at really high in their list. Everybody that I've talked to has been very enamored with it and thought it was spectacular. I've heard people say it's extremely difficult, but a remake of a course that died in Long Island many, many, many years ago, I am extremely keen to get out there. Of course, so it's not his design.

Simon Holt
 0:04:53
 Well, he said that hasn't he? He won't claim it, he won't take credit for it.

David Davis
 0:04:57
 I'm still going to give him credit for it. Sorry, Tom. It's probably at the top of my list, along with Cape Hardy, where you've been. Point Hardy, sorry.

James Henderson
 0:05:09
 It's not the only reconstruction of Aledo.

Simon Holt
 0:05:11
 Well, no, good point well made. So I'm taking a cheeky trip to Thailand for golf. Again, bizarre golf destination for most people, but I encourage you all to go. You want to go to a full moon party, don't you? Yeah, absolutely. So Bali, Gilhans, which is a riff on a leader, I believe, which is out there near Bangkok.

James Henderson
 0:05:39
 There seems to be, I think there's a couple more and one, maybe one in China or somewhere as well. It's like, it's a weird, there's a few, there's four of them, I think, recreations or restructurings or whatever, I don't know what they call them. But what Tom Doak's done is the best representation, maybe because he's had the most money to do it.

David Davis
 0:05:59
 Well, how do you know that?

Simon Holt
 0:06:01
 Well, the story that was, is it Peter Flory? Forgive me, Peter, if you're listening in, I've mispronounced your second name, Flory, who I discovered him on Golf Club Atlas, a bit of a lurker on Golf Club Atlas. And Peter did some CAG, like, computer generated design, and tried to use old topo maps and Google Earth and things like that, and came up with this computer generated 3D model. I believe that's probably the closest description you can get to it of what the place would look like. And then they found this parcel of land out in, you know, Rome, Wisconsin, near the Sand Valley Resorts that the Kaisers have backed. And they've put this thing in the ground with Doke. And forgive me, I can't remember the associates that works in it, but I'm going to say Eric Iverson. I think I got that wrong.

James Henderson
 0:06:49
 I think it was. I think you're right. Yeah. I don't know if they turned down any of the

Simon Holt
 0:06:50
 softened any of that. I know it's supposed to be extremely difficult. I spoke to Michael Kaiser last summer and he said to me like, you know, you go and expect to be challenged. It's a very testing golf course. The one thing you won't be tested is while you will be tested,

James Henderson
 0:07:07
 but you won't get in trouble is off the tee is what I hear regularly from people that have played it is you can have 90 meter wide fairways. Yeah, a lot of width. But your thing is you've got three fairways in that 90 meters. So you've got your shortest, best and worst path. It's just trying to work out which one's the one suits you the best. Yeah. And what's about you, James? Is there on your list for next year?

Simon Holt
 0:07:40
 Even a trip, maybe not just a course, but a trip that you're looking forward to?

4
 0:07:43
 The one I want to go to is Royal Hague. Netherlands, of course.

James Henderson
 0:07:46
 What else could it be after this podcast? I've been messaging a guy recently who's a member of Royal Hague and he's wanting me to come out and do something with them.

David Davis
 0:07:56
 If you go to the Netherlands and I don't know about it and I'm not helping you to do it.

4
 0:08:01
 I'm being incredibly insulted.

Simon Holt
 0:08:03
 You're trying to stay away from Dave. No, but you must go. And the other one I want to go to

James Henderson
 0:08:09
 is the new Dave and Clay Kit course in Portugal.

Simon Holt
 0:08:13
 Oh, Comporto Dunes.

David Davis
 0:08:15
 I want to go there too. We can go together.

James Henderson
 0:08:17
 I've heard it's unbelievable.

Simon Holt
 0:08:18
 Yeah, I think we've put together about seven golf trips so far in this pod.

4
 0:08:23
 Easy.

Simon Holt
 0:08:23
 Which we're not trying hard enough.

David Davis
 0:08:26
 Is that a record?

Simon Holt
 0:08:27
 It's only one every two months. But where else do we go next? Well, David, you're doing a trip to South Africa, which you've been to before. I've only played DEMON Country Club. Where else are you playing in South Africa?

David Davis
 0:08:43
 All the famous places, basically. So it's actually one of the first trips. Well, I tried to do this before and couldn't really make it work. But so it's an opportunity for our guys to play all the, literally the best, at least, okay, that's a subjective comment, but I will say the best are all the highest ranked courses in one go. In South Africa, it's not the smallest of countries, so we found a way to kind of bridge the gap with logistics, which is the difficult part. And, you know, we'll do like the links of Fancourt, which is famous and a couple of courses there. We're going down to Pinnacle Point, which is their old head, literally, you know, all on cliff tops and amazing views and stuff like that. Then we're gonna make it over to Durban, Durban Country Club, which has had some terrible flooding last year, but they've been doing some, giving it some loving and renovation the last several months. And we will finish up at Leopard Creek, which is one that I'm looking forward to because I've actually not been there. That's the only one that I haven't seen. It's one of the few golf courses in the world where you can literally get eaten while you're playing golf. And I'm extremely looking forward to that, actually. How's your hook and slice? Because you might have to get around some giraffe heads. Oh, I've got a hook and a slice. Okay, gentlemen, most exciting new project to open next year.

James Henderson
 0:10:04
 To open next year.

Simon Holt
 0:10:05
 Or exciting new project that will come.

James Henderson
 0:10:07
 Okay, what have you heard?

David Davis
 0:10:10
 We'd have to try to talk about which ones are opening. Cabot Citrus Farm? Well, I can think of one.

Simon Holt
 0:10:14
 Well, we've got a couple now you've said that, but I mean, I suppose the ones we've reeled off so far in the pod that most people would have played because they are so fresh out of the wrapper. A point hardy cabasin leisure sedge Valley sedge Valley. Yeah, I believe they played during the Renaissance Cup at Lido Lido obviously Lido. Oh, yeah Te Arai North. Hell of a long way to go. But for any of our antipodean friends Get yourself to Te Arai. seven mile beach seven mile beaches open and hopefully in Tasmania South part of Tasmania next year. I mean, Pioneers number 10, which leads us beautifully into young designers that we said we wanted to pick up on. And should we come back to that one? Associates, well, we can kind of like skim off that. I mean, Pioneers number 10. Do you want me to come to it now? Well, it naturally flows in. So, I mean, Pioneers number 10 with Angela Moser, so Doat Design. Angela Moser is a lead associate. So, as we've now got to know with a lot of dope designs, those guys have serious input are doing most of the stuff in the ground. Tom will come in and do edits. Maybe they'll re-edit once he's left. But Angela, especially as a female in golf, which should be champions, is there leading the charge. She's probably the most important female associate

James Henderson
 0:11:36
 in the world right now.

David Davis
 0:11:39
 I would...

Simon Holt
 0:11:40
 A golf course designer in her own right, really. She just happens to be the lead associate in terms of her title. Marion Hollins, is that a bit of a stretch?

23
 0:11:48
 Are we going over the top?

David Davis
 0:11:49
 Since Marion Hollins, holy cow, that's...

Simon Holt
 0:11:51
 Well, no, are we going over the top? Let's go back. Well, if we say Marion Hollins was the huge input to... Yeah. I mean, name another female in close to 100 years.

David Davis
 0:11:59
 I can't do that.

Simon Holt
 0:12:00
 Cynthia Dye did Westcliffe's, some kind of relation to... Yeah, and Alice Dye was heavily involved with Pete Dye, the wife of Pete Dye, Alice Dye, heavily involved with a lot of his stuff. But who knows how much, but this is really prominent leading of a project.

David Davis
 0:12:20
 I agree, and can I add to this because Angela is somebody I know reasonably well. I was working in Munich for eight years, and Angela comes from Bavaria, which is where Munich is located. So I used to have the wonderful opportunity to meet up with her once in a while for a beer down there. And as, look, of all places, Germany is a place that needs, you know, I've been praying for Germany to get something going in terms of golf architecture. There are a couple of people that are switched on there like Christian Althaus. There's more golf courses. Who's done four, the island, three courses on the island of Fuhr, which is in northern Germany. But Angela is the future. To me, she's the future of Germany. I mean her calling is to go back and make Germany a golf destination. I really sincerely hope that happens.

Simon Holt
 0:13:17
 I heard that.

David Davis
 0:13:18
 Is that what I said? No, that's what I said. Angela is trying to do greater things, but I just really hoping that she goes back and makes Germany a golf destination.

James Henderson
 0:13:25
 I heard an amazing stat that there's actually more golf courses in Germany than there is in Scotland. Yeah, there's more courses in Germany than there is in Scotland.

22
 0:13:36
 Name five.

10
 0:13:37
 I can't exactly.

James Henderson
 0:13:38
 And Munich Golf Country Club doesn't exist.

Simon Holt
 0:13:42
 Frankfurt Golf Club.

14
 0:13:44
 Berlin.

Simon Holt
 0:13:45
 I mean, just name a bunch of states. He's a bit golf club after six to the boys.

James Henderson
 0:13:49
 But my point is there's something like 700 in Germany. I can't name one. I think I'm 650.

David Davis
 0:13:55
 The best is Hamburger Falkenstein. And that is going back to an old Harry Colt rooting that was tampered with by Bernard von Limburger.

Simon Holt
 0:14:07
 By the way, amazing knowledge, David Davis.

James Henderson
 0:14:10
 Unbelievable. Chapeau. But there was only about 200 20 years ago. So a lot of them have been built in the last 20 years.

David Davis
 0:14:21
 Well, actually, you probably have to go back 40 years. You need to go back to the dark ages of architecture, because I'll tell you what. Fair, yeah, yeah. You need to go back to the dark ages of golf architecture because I'll tell you what, and look, I might get shot down for this, but Germany never left it.

James Henderson
 0:14:39
 Okay.

David Davis
 0:14:40
 Yeah, it's sad, and that's a somber comment, but it's true. Well we can put, hopefully Angela will venture back and fix them. I am very proud as, you know, I've been spending so many years in Germany, I'm very proud of a German, because those two things in golf course architecture don't really go together.

James Henderson
 0:14:58
 Well, we had the last pod that went live, we had Alessandra Kutz, who's one of two or three female club fitters in the whole of the UK and Ireland, which is wild. And it's the same in golf course architecture. Can you name another female golf course architect

Simon Holt
 0:15:17
 that's alive and working? Lena Mortensen, who's Danish. I'm not sure if she's active, she's done anything recently. But she lives down in East Lothian and that's the only reason I know, but your point is well made. Oh, absolutely.

James Henderson
 0:15:33
 I mean, it's the same as, there's more working, sorry, there's more working astronauts in the world than there is golf course architects.

Simon Holt
 0:15:46
 But I think I listened to your pod with Sandra at the other day and whenever this pod goes out, it was a few days ago that that one was released. She's one of maybe three female club fitters. And you've talked a lot about male-dominated industry and the spin-off of that. Unfortunately, there's nowhere more stark in terms of that than golf course architecture. But even with greenkeepers, on a positive note, I have to say when we were recently in New Zealand, saw at least a handful of female greenkeepers, which was great to see.

James Henderson
 0:16:25
 There's definitely more female greenkeepers going, starting to take up the role, absolutely. But it's a very difficult thing to get into. It's a very male-dominated task.

Simon Holt
 0:16:41
 But even in terms of the places we've been, we're getting really low detail now, but even the facilities, most greenkeeper facilities, certainly around the UK, probably don't really cater for female members of the team because they're so small, like real cubbyholes of places with a few lawnmowers, a few bits of machinery, and one, I mean, it's probably generous to describe as a common area, but it is great to see more females in the industry. As a father of two daughters, it's wonderful to see more females in the industry and more opportunities.

9
 0:17:12
 Okay, right.

David Davis
 0:17:13
 You have two fathers here of two daughters actually.

James Henderson
 0:17:16
 There you go. Well, on that profound note, let's move on to the next bit. If there was a World Cup of Design in 2023, who do you think won it? Who was the architect of the

5
 0:17:30
 year?

David Davis
 0:17:34
 Quickly just take the easy answer and I'm gonna say doke because of because of Lido and That mainly that one I think is kind of like everybody's gonna be talking about it

Simon Holt
 0:17:46
 Yes, it's here. I north the thing that leader will get more coverage because more people get there in the US Here I north to me is is is bonkers goods Really really good, but we're talking I mean straight away it we're talking World Cup of golf course design of new golf courses then there's only a few people you can talk about yeah if we're talking about courses that we visited in the last year I mean Allison's got a feature pretty highly because of how impressed we are with Japan but suppose you have to duff your cap to Mackenzie but for their work at Hirono there in terms of restoration of the year or we would class as the best restoration we've seen the best renovation of the year restoration. Yeah Hirono for me. Yeah, Hirono

David Davis
 0:18:29
 Nothing's close to that. Okay, how about best new course of the year?

James Henderson
 0:18:33
 For me the best new course I have played this year

Simon Holt
 0:18:36
 Is Tirai north which I've already mentioned closely followed by point Hardy and those last five holes are mind-blowing.

David Davis
 0:18:53
 So again, let me just verify what you're saying. New to me or new course?

James Henderson
 0:19:00
 New golf course in the last, or become publicly available in the last year.

David Davis
 0:19:06
 Yeah, I don't know that I've played too many that are like brand new open courses this year. I might have to think about that or pass that one because off the top of my head, whether it's that beer and a half or whatever it is that's keeping me from coming up with the name, I can't think of it.

James Henderson
 0:19:27
 Okay, so which country do you reckon improved the recognition worldwide the most in golf in the last year? Another tough question.

David Davis
 0:19:35
 I'm not sure in the last year,

21
 0:19:36
 it's hard to say the last year,

Simon Holt
 0:19:38
 but I mean, we've talked about it. I would say, and I'm sort of patting a colleague on the back here, but certainly the last 10 years, I think the Netherlands has been like an emerging nation, which sounds ridiculous to say a contradiction in terms given how old golf is in the Netherlands. But I think the Netherlands is now not firmly on the map, but on the map and people need to go there.

David Davis
 0:20:02
 So I'm going to I can't argue with that, but I'm going to speak out of hearsay on this one just because I haven't been enough yet. I've been once on only played one course. I'm going to say Vietnam is the country that is, you know, the biggest one on the list of like hot spots of golf where where tons of new courses are being built?

Simon Holt
 0:20:25
 I feel like Asian golf and like, sorry, I'm going to go off on one now about recognition of golf courses. There has to be at least a handful of courses in Asia that should be in consideration for a world's top 100 that either are not in the spotlight, none of us have visited, I'm not sure, but I find it hard to believe that there is a lot of golf courses in Asia. There has to be at least a handful, more than a handful that are worthy of consideration for some of these world lists. So I would love to explore more of Asia. And I don't know, maybe it's the conditioning thing, a lot of them in terms of, when I say conditioning, not how the grass is cut, but more, you know, whether it's firmer, faster, it's sloppy and wet because the place is so humid. It also doesn't help when you don't have the level of expertise that other places have. But they probably do. I just feel it's like people don't go there.

James Henderson
 0:21:23
 Well, there's a, I know in winemaking, there's places like France, you could start up a winery, make a winery and make good wine at a very low cost to a high enough level that you could absolutely destroy most wine that would be produced from somewhere like China. Because there's your neighbour produces wine, you can buy second hand equipment, you have, it's easy to get an agronomist, it's all these different small things you don't think about that produce a very good wine. In China, where there's very few golf courses, you don't have that accessibility. You might have spent a huge amount of money on building a golf course, but having someone like Tom Doak and paying for him to come over all the time and things like this is very difficult.

David Davis
 0:22:09
 So my, I mean one of the things that I would say, and this is with, to be fair I'll call it limited experience, though I've been, you know, I've played in China, I've played in I'm going to say that they get, so they bring in a lot of, so what they believe is great in golf, they bring a lot of American architects over and they want to reproduce Parkland courses that are in the U.S. To me, what makes golf great around the world is when you go to a place and it has something that's uniquely distinctive to its own country, Australia, sand belt, those type of things. That sticks out. Japan, what Allison did there. If I go to Korea, for example, to me, I know there's great courses in Korea and there's a lot of golf courses and most of us, including, actually, I'll say all of us, haven't seen the majority of them because there's probably a thousand, you know, or plus golf courses. But, you know, if I look at Korea, for me, it's South Cape. It's just this place that I'm in love with that place. You know, I can't deny it. I love the course. I love the place. Give me a choice of a resort to go, I probably would pick that.

Simon Holt
 0:23:29
 Yeah, big Kyle Phillips guy. Really good golf course. No one's going to get there. And it's expensive. It's a resort course, so in very common people can play, but bonkers expensive, but fantastic place to go. If you can stretch to it, or you happen to be in Korea and get a cheeky invite somehow, some sort of corporate, I don't know, but wonderful golf course, amazing resorts. I just feel that like with Asian golf, we're so focused on the US and the UK, even Europe suffers. Let's talk about closest to home, like Europe. There's gotta be some golf courses in there in Europe that are really good, that they fly under the radar just because they're in Europe. Are people scared of putting their neck on the block and saying, actually, these places are pretty good?

David Davis
 0:24:12
 We've been talking about Netherlands for a long time.

Simon Holt
 0:24:14
 Yeah, no, we have now, but those are kind of old world courses. So we are getting deeper.

James Henderson
 0:24:19
 Are you thinking about more like Thingy Cliffs in Bulgaria kind of vibe?

Simon Holt
 0:24:22
 Yeah, yeah, no, we used to talk about that. The Ration Cliffs. Yeah, is that Gary Player? Yeah.

20
 0:24:27
 Right, so, okay, I'll pass.

Simon Holt
 0:24:28
 I'm seconding that, but just quietly. But my point is, I probably want to make a, sorry, now, kind of on a stirred box here. This consensus that no new golf course can possibly, possibly, how dare it indeed, get into the world top 30, 20, 10. What are we talking about? Everything else in the world, whether it be football players, sorry, soccer players for our US visitors, or whether it's, you know, talk to me about something else, whether it's computers, whether it's anything in the world. There's been all these huge improvements, but somehow there is no amazing line left and no skill that the modern designers have with all the technology that's available to them to build a better gulf coast than Pine Valley. Are you kidding me? Of course they can do, but what is stopping people from either A doing it in the first place or B, be it panelists or the consumer going there and having the you-know-what's to say no actually this place is amazing. This is good enough to be in the world top 10.

James Henderson
 0:25:43
 So how many golf courses in the top 100 used a bulldozer to be built?

18
 0:25:48
 I don't know.

David Davis
 0:25:49
 That's a hard question. I'd love to know. Can I call a friend?

Simon Holt
 0:25:55
 Well there's got to be very few that in their evolution haven't had some sort of work done to them. But I know what you're saying, like created by bulldozers maybe from scratch and very few of those golden age designs or pre-golden age designs, they're really old courses like the old course or a Muirfield. I don't know, it just sticks in my throat a little bit that we do seem stuck in this place where the top 50 in the world maybe, but certainly the top 20 in the world are fixed. The top 10 none of them are older than 1930. Well none of them are younger than 1930. No you do have a few. Who? Well Sandhills is one that the obvious one that's really there but. Well no top 10 in the world. Well and then some people's reckon that would be top 10 but I take your point anything that's in the top 20 in the world is truly spectacular. And to think that a new course is almost not allowed to break into that, to me, seems counterintuitive to everything else that's going on in the world.

David Davis
 0:27:00
 Well, absolutely. That's protecting the sacred cows.

James Henderson
 0:27:02
 No, but how much of it do you think it is because you might have a golf hole that you can, you know, say a new golf course has a golf hole like a Redan or whatever that is very similar to a golf hole that is in one of the top 10 golf courses. And you're like, oh, actually I've seen this before. I've seen this here. This is a copy of a previous hole. Do you, does that make a difference? Would that, would you look at that the same quality as the previous hole that's older?

Simon Holt
 0:27:33
 I just feel like that for modern day designers at times is like an easy way out. And I don't mean that to be disrespectful. It's something to, oh, this would be cool to have her down here. And that's great. I love her down. So, oh, that would be cool. This line fits perfectly for this. I've always wanted to do this because there's only so many ways to skin a cat. They visited all these golf courses around the world, and they've taken the time and effort to visit these places and say, oh, this hole would fit perfectly here. It would be great to go to a place that didn't, was that all forcibly got the cap to somewhere and just went, Hey, this is my heart on a sleeve. This is the best golf course I can do on this amazing piece of land. And for the industry, it's totally original to turn around and go, you know what? Wow. That's an amazing golf. Cause then they kind of did it with sand hills, but why can't it happen again? Why does that only happen once every 30 years?

David Davis
 0:28:28
 But that's not original. Did that not happen at Tobacco Road? It's amazing, but original is totally different.

Simon Holt
 0:28:32
 There's no real templates out there per se.

James Henderson
 0:28:34
 Controversial, but is that not what happened at Tobacco Road?

Simon Holt
 0:28:37
 Well, I mean, heart on the sleeve, yes, that did happen at Tobacco Road.

James Henderson
 0:28:45
 Whether it's right or wrong, whether it's good design, it doesn't matter, but that's...

David Davis
 0:28:50
 Oh, it's brilliant. Everybody should go see Tobacco Road. There's no doubt about it. But is it completely original? I don't know. It's quirky? Yes, 100%. They took UK quirk and brought it to the US and then probably put it on steroids a little bit, Tobacco Road. But Tobacco Road's amazing. Everybody should go see it. It's a wonderful place to go. I don't know if that answers your question or not. I'd say halfway. I wouldn't go full on and say that's completely original.

6
 0:29:21
 Is there anything you want to add to?

James Henderson
 0:29:23
 I think I'm not quite finished on that part yet.

Simon Holt
 0:29:25
 It's more, and some of one of our good mutual friends, Paul Rudovsky, all three of us know Paul, brought up with me recently. We were just talking absolute nonsense on the phone. And he said, we were talking about something that was written on golf club Atlas about, Oh, it seems in vogue at the moment for everyone to rush to golf courses and be in a hurry to give their opinion. And Paul and I said, that kind of cuts two ways because some people can go, and I'm not saying I'm one of them or not, and they can remove the, the, the periphery, all the things that are around the golf course that maybe haven't been tied in properly because it's so new and judge it and think that it's great or not. Other people go and either I think, oh yeah, I better say this is great because other people I'm guessing will say it's great. So I want to be the first people to say it's great. Or they go and actually have a negative opinion because they can't remove the stuff around the outsides because it's rough and ready on the outsides. They don't want to say it's a great golf course. So I'm kind of waffling, it's there is a race to be first to go and see places that's going on. There's a race for all these golf courses to get into a list because it's very important for them for visitor footfall, for real estate, whatever else, for the pride of the owner, we just say it's probably like the least important thing. It's about the money. But if places are good enough, it doesn't matter that they're young.

James Henderson
 0:30:53
 For me, I would say, I would agree with you, but after playing a few golf courses, just after being built, and 10 years after being built, they're always, almost always better at 10 years.

Simon Holt
 0:31:10
 Yeah, of course, they've all settled in. We're all far more mature than we were 10 years ago.

James Henderson
 0:31:14
 But I don't, and it's a very, it's a thing that we're very used to with whiskey, right? We're in Scotland, we're very used to aging a whiskey and keeping a whiskey for 10 years, as you know, David.

David Davis
 0:31:24
 Or wine.

James Henderson
 0:31:25
 Or wine, exactly. Whereas I do think people can turn up at golf course, after it's been built, judge it, and never go back. And-

David Davis
 0:31:36
 Happens all the time.

Simon Holt
 0:31:37
 Yeah, that happens all the time. I suppose to counter that and using your exact analogy, if you were to blind taste test someone and sometimes they taste an eight year old whiskey and they'd vote it better than the 20 year old, but if they were looking at a label that automatically do the herd mentality of, oh, it's a 21 year old whiskey, this is better. And exactly the same with wine. Now, as people will tell you, some wines you need to drink straight away or within a couple of years and if they're left longer than that they go bad. That doesn't happen with golf courses for the most part. They usually do get better because I'm sure the turf knits in a bit better.

James Henderson
 0:32:13
 But it can go to bad if you don't look at them properly.

Simon Holt
 0:32:15
 I suppose within reason. Let's say a course has been open five years so it's properly grown in. the consensus that none of these new courses could ever break into the absolute top echelons of golf courses around the world seems strange. And this is coming from, as you know James, an absolute purist, an absolute traditionalist, someone who would play North Berwick, Muirfield, the whole course a thousand times over. James Weston Majority of golf is played with a shirt, tie and jacket. Exactly.

David Davis
 0:32:51
 So you believe it's possible, you've just never seen it?

Simon Holt
 0:32:54
 I don't know, I feel I've gone out there with a few courses, like Tahiti, I wasn't shy. And it wasn't like it was the first person to say that, but it was one of the first people to go there. It wasn't because of me that people thought it was great, because I said it, no one listens to me. But I was happy to say it's fantastic.

James Henderson
 0:33:12
 Everyone gets excited when Tom Doak's releasing a new golf course.

16
 0:33:16
 Absolutely.

David Davis
 0:33:17
 But he's a great marketeer.

Simon Holt
 0:33:19
 He's a fantastic marketeer. But I mean, name another new course. I mean, lots of the core credential courses, I suppose.

David Davis
 0:33:25
 Yeah, they get massive marketing.

Simon Holt
 0:33:27
 But the same way you interviewed David McLean Kidley the other day. So he said he was 27 or something when he did Band and Dunes, but then the pressure was on him, right?

20
 0:33:38
 Yeah

James Henderson
 0:33:38
 and so he wasn't producing and I'm pretty sure he'd come out and say that he wasn't producing the same quality that he Produced that band in June's and it's because he was the first person to do it in America when he did what he did Abandoned June's. Yeah, and he talks about that stage of life that he went through basically and all those type of things You had a great the pod with him was fantastic. Yeah, I'm just going to, we've already touched Angela. Is there any other exciting new talent in the Gulf Coast Architects?

David Davis
 0:34:15
 So who I mentioned before, did we already mention Kyle? Sorry, actually forgot.

Simon Holt
 0:34:19
 Kyle France. Yeah. As in Cabot.

19
 0:34:22
 Well, exactly.

David Davis
 0:34:23
 Citrus Farms, yeah. Yeah, and of course he did, you know, he got a huge opportunity to do mid pines and pine needles, you know, and spend a lot of time in the pioneer's area and kind of knocked that out of the park. So rightly so that he got the opportunities to do that. There's a whole bunch of new stuff coming up with, you know, some of Doak's associates, of course, that's been open now and to huge acclaim, like Tree Farm and Old Barnwell and what else in that area. There's some massive new projects.

Simon Holt
 0:34:58
 And we talked about exciting trips. Every January, I'm very lucky to go and play in a tournament in Georgia. No one thinks Augusta, but near there, fantastic golf course. But this time I'm really excited to go. I was lucky enough to get a peek at the Tree Farm last year to now go and see it now it's bedded in. I'm excited about an old Barnwell. You're right, there's a real like hub of golf around Aitken.

James Henderson
 0:35:21
 Is that Schneider who's doing?

Simon Holt
 0:35:23
 Brian Schneider.

David Davis
 0:35:24
 Brian, yeah, he's doing a ton of stuff.

Simon Holt
 0:35:25
 And Blake Conant is old Barnwell. But then, yeah, you've talked about car friends. Another person I want to touch upon, because we've talked a lot about young designers, but young developers, forgive me, Ben, if you're listening, but I didn't realize how young Ben Caron Dua was. Around the same age as me, I don't know if that's young, but sort of early 40s. What Ben's doing now, and like his foot on the gas on the developer side, what an interesting man he is to sit down with.

James Henderson
 0:35:51
 Can you explain to people what's going on there?

Simon Holt
 0:35:53
 Well, yeah, Ben Caron Dua is a golf developer now. That's how he started off in golf travel, created these wonderful databases of golf travelers back in the day, bought a bunch of parcels of land up on Nova Scotia, built Cabot Links, then Cabot Cliffs, and now he's branched out and, you know, he's business partners with some other very prominent developers in the golf industry. And he's done Revelstoke in British Columbia. He's done Cabot St. Lucia, the building, of course, and Clyde Johnson, the lead associate for DOKE, our Pats. Next to Castle Stewart, as we used to know, Cabot Highlands, which will be great, Citrus Farms, we're allowed to talk about it now but when I first did the pod with Clyde which we never actually aired because the audio was terrible, you know there's a double crisscross, one in 18 crosses isn't there, they cross each other, double crisscross,

James Henderson
 0:36:46
 yeah so there's another hole that they crisscross as well.

7
 0:36:50
 Really?

David Davis
 0:36:51
 Yeah. I can't even think of a double crisscross in golf. So that's pretty unique.

James Henderson
 0:36:55
 So one you cross the fairway with 18.

Simon Holt
 0:36:59
 One of 18 certainly crosses.

James Henderson
 0:37:01
 There's another two holes as well. Really? I believe so, yeah, yeah. I think it's out in the far end. I might be wrong, but I believe that's, yeah.

David Davis
 0:37:10
 Well, I think that we need to mention, and I haven't seen them, but King Collins.

Simon Holt
 0:37:18
 Landman.

David Davis
 0:37:19
 Landman, which I haven't seen yet, unfortunately. And obviously Sweden's Cove, I've not seen that either. So actually, that's one of the few architects out there that I've not seen any of their work. I apologize for my ignorance there.

Simon Holt
 0:37:32
 No, but that's a great shout, David. They are, I don't know, Zach talked to them for quite some time about doing tree farms at Blair, which he's given them credit for in the past. Sweden's Cove is obviously what put them on the map, Landman out in Nebraska.

David Davis
 0:37:45
 But they have several projects going on now.

Simon Holt
 0:37:47
 Yeah, and one of them is the Bounty Club just outside of Nashville that Justin Timberlake is involved with as well. I think it's something like 20 minutes from downtown Nashville, which seems to be the place to move in America at the moment.

18
 0:38:01
 Yeah.

David Davis
 0:38:02
 And actually, sorry, just to add to that, there's also another one that's coming in like the greater Augusta area. So that's like crazy. Is that the 21 club or something?

Simon Holt
 0:38:10
 Exactly, it might be 21.

David Davis
 0:38:11
 Yeah, you might be right.

Simon Holt
 0:38:12
 Two courses there, I think. Is that to add to the Aitken area?

James Henderson
 0:38:14
 That's crazy. Yeah.

David Davis
 0:38:16
 That area is going to be like one of the biggest areas in the US for golf.

Simon Holt
 0:38:20
 Yeah, a big seam of sand down there. I think there's like essentially the old ocean bed that's 100 miles, I'm throwing out a round number, inland from the coast, and there's this seam of sand that the likes of the courses you just named are on, a hoop is on, yeah.

David Davis
 0:38:38
 Yeah, I mean, that's a super interesting area for architecture. One thing I'd like to say about that area or the courses that I've seen down there, and I don't want to name names of the courses, but very often what I've noticed is that I's like a Lynx course, the shots I like Lynx shots, like you should use the ground to make the shot or that's a very viable option. And yet often the issue that I have with it is that the ground, the turf is too sticky to play it like a Lynx shot. So you need to play a shot like, for example, guys will pull a 60 degree wedge out, which we'd never do on a Lynx course over here. But they'll pull a 60 degree wedge out and hit it to the pin when it looks like it should be played on the ground. I know there's different strains of grass that are coming and stuff where they're trying to improve on that, playability, like, you know, to increase the options that you can use when playing into greens. But my experience so far is that all the courses I've played, it looks like a Lynx, but it plays like a warm weather grass parkland course. Feel free to jump in.

James Henderson
 0:39:49
 No, no, well actually that brings us perfectly on to our next point.

David Davis
 0:39:53
 What do you think is a fine margin that designers are starting to cross? So the first thing that comes to mind is that, and I've been getting a lot of like pushback on kind of the concept in general over the last, I'd say two years, and that's this, the whole minimalist movement. It's almost like, okay, it's amazing, it just keeps going, but it's almost getting that the courses, a lot of the courses have too much short grass, too much width, you know, which is a big stress on maintenance as well, of course, right? Not everybody can do that. You need to have a lot of money to be able to continue to keep it up in that form. But, you know, there's courses coming out that are 150 yards wide off the tee. And then what I hear is that, you know, from a lot of people, they say, okay, listen, that's ridiculous, you know. If it's, if every course being built is a second ball course, if it's only about the angle and the shot into the green and those type of things, you know, aren't we getting a little bit bland and a little bit boring? So if those are the only courses that are on the radar of anybody, aren't we overdoing minimalism a bit?

5
 0:41:05
 Yeah, I would agree.

James Henderson
 0:41:06
 How about you? What do you think, Simon?

Simon Holt
 0:41:08
 Yeah, I mean, David and I, I mean, not for a few weeks now, but we haven't got into it for a while of a Gulf Coast architecture. So this pod's been great. But I do think there is a limit to width. I get it. And I'm a huge fan of it and growing up where I did and University of St. Andrews, all the width. I get it. But I just feel there's some places where there's so much width, there's no real challenge off the tee and no real interest. And I don't class myself as a good player, but for the good players, I feel you have to have something. You have to every now and then, even if it's maybe six times around, um, out of 18 holes, you just have one hole where it's not hardcore, of course, but there is some sort of challenge of the season. You know what? If I take that on and I hope we don't move so far away from that there's no advantage to being a good driver of the ball in terms of accuracy so you just stand there slash away and as long as you're hitting it far enough you can go wide enough okay I buy into the argument oh but you have a four and if you hit it over there you'll have an eight iron if you're here I don't know I don't know

James Henderson
 0:42:21
 I know Royal Liverpool doesn't stack up very well in terms of the top 100 in the world, but it's 40th in the UK or something. It's always been a course that rewards a very accurate driver. There's no surprise why Brian Harmon's done well there in the last Open in that terrible weather because he almost drove every fairway. If you look at the areas you have to drive to, there's a golf course that's been kind of not ignored in top 100s, but it probably needs a wee bit more recognition than it gets.

Simon Holt
 0:43:02
 I'm glad you brought Royal Liverpool up actually, and very topical this year because of the Open and everyone will focus on 17. But I think it's a golf course, and I've played it maybe half a dozen times. I wish I played it more. Wonderful club, first and foremost, one of the few clubs in the world where the course and club, I think are right up there as one of the true greats. It squeezes, as a golf course, squeezes every ounce of quality out of that piece of land. So the start and finish, whether you, let's not get confused between open, routine of the golf course and member order of the holes as well. The start and finish is fairly flat in terms of topography, not particularly interesting, but very, well, in terms of landforms, but very interesting golf holes. And then you get into the dunes from the member routing of the golf course for through what was old 13, which has now been flipped to be 17 in the open, is the more interesting land. But then I think what used to be 14, completely pan-flat hole, but using the angles of the rough on the right, and almost like a berm almost that was down there, very interesting hole, really good hole, 15 was a good hole. And I do think it's a course that's harshly treated. Is it one of my favorite open golf courses? Open venues, yes. Open golf courses in a non-open occasion, there's ones I enjoy more. But I do feel it's dealt with pretty harshly. I'd jump in there and say two points.

David Davis
 0:44:43
 The first one is that a lot of people say that great gulf architecture is architecture that makes the best of the land that's available. We could definitely sit here and argue that Roe Liverpool has done, you know, in terms of gulf architecture.

Simon Holt
 0:45:04
 Well, it's right up there, not in the scale of the design.

David Davis
 0:45:07
 Exactly. So did they maximize the usage of the available attributes that the land has?

Simon Holt
 0:45:13
 The juice from the squeeze is as good as it gets.

David Davis
 0:45:16
 Absolutely. So, you know, that ticks that box. But the second point, sorry James, just quickly to throw this in, the second point is really that, you know, often you will hear us talk about the top 100 golf courses in the world. I mean, that's the 0.0, what is it, 1% or something like that? So that's a little bit unfair because if you're in the top 500 golf courses in the world, you've got an amazing course. Nothing, you know, you should be incredibly proud of that because it's so rare to have the 1% or whatever it is or, you know, whatever that percentage is, exactly. And is Royal Liverpool in that category regardless of how you look at it, whether you say it's top 100 or whether you say it's top 200, absolutely 100%. Is the architecture then fantastic, phenomenal, great architecture making the best use of the land?

5
 0:46:12
 Absolutely.

James Henderson
 0:46:13
 There's my big topic about it, the reason I brought it up was because it is a golf course that you need to drive well and you need to drive accurate because there is difficult areas if you do go offline. And there's a few golf courses that are the older style of golf course that have that. But yet the modern style, as we were talking earlier, can't get into that top 10, top 20 bracket, that features all these golf courses that do have tighter areas.

Simon Holt
 0:46:45
 I'm not sure about that, about getting into the bracket with the tighter areas, because if you look at the ones that are right at the top of the list at the moment, it's very few of them that are super hard. I mean, I suppose, maybe I'm contradicting myself. I'm talking myself out of this. But I mean, national, I wouldn't class as tight. Pine Valley, I would say, is not particularly tight off the tee, but if you're out of position, then all of a sudden trees are coming into play and for your second shot. But visually incredibly intimidating. Visually it looks tight. But so is Muirfield. I mean, you talk about Muirfield a lot. It's one of my favorite golf courses. Off the tee, the first time around, your second, third, fourth time around, your hundredth time around, if you're so lucky, it does look intimidating. But once you've played it a few times, you realize the landing areas are actually 35 to 40 yards wide, but the visuals are very intimidating. Alpine Valley, thing is about Pine Valley, you've then got some trees to navigate.

David Davis
 0:47:43
 And a couple of waste areas.

Simon Holt
 0:47:45
 No, just a couple. I almost are at a stage now though where it's not quite gone this far. I'm saying this to make a point, I guess, that maybe we need a top 100 championship courses. I think that would keep a lot of people happy because they probably feel like a Shinnecock or some people maybe say Augusta is like, surely the best golf course in the world. And I love Augusta, I've been fortunate enough to play that. I absolutely love it. And it's the number one experience in golf. Is it my favorite golf course? No, but that doesn't mean there's bad golf courses.

James Henderson
 0:48:17
 Just so everyone knows, I'm the only person in the room that hasn't played Augusta.

David Davis
 0:48:21
 Well, there's always gotta be somebody.

Simon Holt
 0:48:22
 Yeah, there's always the wee man in the room. I don't know, sort of got off on a tangent there, away from my point, but the point is that it's not in vogue at the moment to be this tight championship course and places like Oakland Hills, Oak Hill, Baltusroll have thrown a hell of a lot of money at restorations, renovations to open them up a wee bit, increase the footprints of the greens and things like that.

David Davis
 0:48:51
 Southern hills.

Simon Holt
 0:48:52
 Southern hills, lots of hills. It's not a hill, it's a mound, but Oakmont is one of the hardest driving courses in the world. Well, it certainly was before they stripped the trees away and it still is now. I mean, Oakmont's a ridiculously difficult golf course. golf course, but we are in this kind of cycle, phase, whatever you'd want to call it, of openness.

James Henderson
 0:49:22
 Maybe not with, but openness. Will there be a renaissance and return to masochism? That's the question. Well, I think there'll be a point where you have a number of people in golf turning around and going, actually there's too many competitions being won by 20 handicappers because they've got no problem off the tee.

David Davis
 0:49:45
 Enough is enough, right?

James Henderson
 0:49:46
 This is ridiculous. I can't play with a guy who's just topped it and be in the same position as him. I think that's the great skill.

Simon Holt
 0:49:53
 There's courses that go a little too far, but then the ones that are the true greats, certainly in this era, which can be seen as a second age, second golden age of golf course design are the courses that balance the width with challenge. So they are truly, hit it over here, you're going to have loads of room, but you're going to have a forehand to the green and on that angle you're going to struggle to hold it. Or hit it over here, if you mess up, you're dead. If you pull it off, you've got an eight iron into an open angle to this green, you know, well done.

17
 0:50:27
 So that's the thing.

David Davis
 0:50:29
 Dare I say, turn back of the ball, slowing of green speeds, a radicalization of green surfaces and...

Simon Holt
 0:50:40
 What do you mean radicalization of green surfaces? Well, that takes us in and I'm not disagreeing with that. That takes us into another area. We always talk a lot about DOC, but having just been down to the North Coast at TRI, wild greens.

David Davis
 0:51:03
 Running at 15?

16
 0:51:04
 No, of course not.

Simon Holt
 0:51:05
 But like a solid 10, if they were much faster than that.

7
 0:51:09
 Okay, that's scary.

Simon Holt
 0:51:10
 They're probably not 10.

David Davis
 0:51:11
 Wild greens running at 10 is scary.

Simon Holt
 0:51:12
 They're probably 8.5 at the moment because it's brand new, but when it gets up to 10 or 11, then it's scary.

David Davis
 0:51:19
 Windy too.

Simon Holt
 0:51:20
 People are probably going to, well, yes and no. Yes, windy, but it's in the trees, albeit there's huge scale to the property.

David Davis
 0:51:30
 So is it green speeds are two pretty big things, right? Because that completely changes the landscape of golf and how definitely how the amateurs are playing and certainly also how the pros are playing. But it changes golf architecture. It kind of preserves to

James Henderson
 0:51:53
 a certain extent golf architecture. One thing I do find is a shame is there's a lot of green sites that are being flattened worldwide. There are a load of green sites around the world that are fantastic green sites that are built by these unbelievable architects that still control the top 100, whether you agree with it or not, they still are the best architects that have ever lived. And their greens are being flattened because they can't keep up. Their green speeds

Simon Holt
 0:52:21
 are much higher. Yeah, I think that there's going to be that battle, more so in Great Britain than Ireland, for the old classic sitter there, like old paintings that people don't want to touch up or adjust and they just want to leave them exactly how they are. But then there's the pressure from the members and the better golfers, as to your point, Shane, actually not even the better golfers, just members in general, that see Augusta on television every April and think, well, we should all have super fast screens. Or they see the PGA Tour every single week I think they should have super fast greens.

James Henderson
 0:52:51
 To be fair, if anyone's played a Lynx golf course on a windy day that's rolled above 10.5, they don't want to be there.

Simon Holt
 0:52:59
 Well, I always remember 2015, you remember the day when the open was called off on the Saturday and you've never seen as many drunk people in St. Andrews in your life because there's all these guys that had gone up there for Saturday golf and there's no golf. I played at Kings Vines that day and the ball was not moving on the greens because they were cut at about a nine and we'd walked around the old course earlier that week and the green staff was saying oh yeah the greens are going to run at a 10 max. So that one foot on the stimp makes a huge difference especially in the wind. 10 in modern sense is not fast but I believe that is what they like the open greens to run out about 10. That's exactly right. Yeah

David Davis
 0:53:40
 I mean I've heard that from is it the the guy that One of the open scientists or something like that, right the guy that researches everything to the nth degree and he said the goal is green stint in and and I would add to that that most people Don't have a clue about stint. So they think oh those are running at 12. No, they're probably at 9. It's just our idea of what that's like, and especially if you try to take out the slope. So if you're on a course that has a fair bit of slope and you play those greens and they're running at 8, you think they're running at 12 because the downhill one, you put it off the green basically. So that's a huge difference

James Henderson
 0:54:21
 and it's just one of those golf techniques. There's a great example that is the last two opens of Muirfield. So you have the ladies open, that every single green was meticulously measured to run at 10.5. That was the speed that they aimed for and that was the speed they got, because it wasn't that windy during that whole time, the wind was low. So they decided to make a little bit more defence by putting it at 10.5. The 2013 open, everything baked out and the Greens were running up at close to 12 if not 12

Simon Holt
 0:54:54
 And it wasn't a windy open that Open in 13, the Mickelson won And he was the only person under par. Only person in the par by about three as well He won, but I think was he three in the par and the next was Level or one under? Do you know who was next? Westwood? Next was Stenson and what happened next year was 2014.

15
 0:55:15
 Which was Troon.

Simon Holt
 0:55:16
 No, no, no. 2016 was Troon.

James Henderson
 0:55:18
 Sorry, 2016 was Troon. 2014 was McIlroy at Liverpool.

Simon Holt
 0:55:20
 Yeah, sorry, I'm getting confused in my ears.

David Davis
 0:55:26
 Which one was Stewart Sink winning at the last?

Simon Holt
 0:55:29
 Oh, 09. February 2009.

14
 0:55:31
 09, yeah.

David Davis
 0:55:32
 Okay, 09, sorry.

James Henderson
 0:55:33
 That was such a shame.

David Davis
 0:55:34
 Backtracking.

James Henderson
 0:55:35
 My point is, the Mickelson and Poulter, two of the great putters at that period, both said that it was like putting on a crazy golf course. It was unplayable.

Simon Holt
 0:55:47
 Well, Mickelson, I was there at that Open in 2013, sat in the grandstands, and wonderful event to be at, but watching it on television, I didn't have the sense of Mickelson playing one of the greatest ever rounds of golf, which he then subsequently highlighted as one of his best ever, if not his best ever round of golf, was that final round at Muirfield. But when you're there, you don't really sense that. I think if you've watched it on television, you could probably appreciate it a bit more. But the fact that there was no rain those four days, the wind was about 10 miles to 15 miles an hour max, but the course was so baked out that year. I liken it to sort of powder skiing conditions. If there's been a big dump of snow, everyone hops on a plane to the Alps from here in Scotland. And it was like, almost like people were coming back summer because the courses was so baked out. It was like, Oh, you know, this is once in a generation links golf course conditions. And we were lucky enough to have an open like that at Muirfield, which is incredible.

James Henderson
 0:56:46
 Do you know who was captain at that year? Robbinda. And do you know what he said to the second place Hendrik Stenson? Hard luck son. No, he said, because his wife's Swedish. He said in Swedish to him, I was hoping you'd win. Really? Yeah. While standing next to Mikkelsen. So he couldn't, but he didn't understand. Could you, could you say that in Swedish?

David Davis
 0:57:08
 Nowhere near. It's got a lot of Os. Maybe we'd get really interesting here.

10
 0:57:13
 Can you?

James Henderson
 0:57:14
 No.

13
 0:57:15
 What's in Dutch?

David Davis
 0:57:16
 In Dutch? I was hoping your wife would win.

Simon Holt
 0:57:18
 That's thank you in Swedish I think is the only Swedish word in there.

James Henderson
 0:57:26
 I think we're kind of covered everything. The only thing I would like to ask you about is exciting tournament golf courses, but I think no one really cares about tournament golf anymore.

Simon Holt
 0:57:36
 So I wouldn't mind talking about that. Well, we talked about mere filled. We just talked about that for next year, which of the most exciting. So what are the, what are the courses next year? So obviously we've got Augusta. We've all, we've all had enough about Augusta over the years. Um, where else do we have next year? Is it pinehurst for the us open? I think it is pinehurst. I just number two. How many times have you played that David three times? So I've only played there once and got my you know what kicked. I found it incredibly tough, didn't have my best golfing day but still really appreciated the golf course. There's enough been written about Pinehurst that I don't need to comment on the course itself

David Davis
 0:58:17
 unless you have anything new to add David. The only new thing would be like a criticism. I don't find it very memorable to be honest and I played it three times and I could not take you through the course. And I have a – if I talk about my personal golf experiences, I have this really weird mind for golf courses. Like I can remember all the humps and bumps and all these little things, and I struggle to remember much of Pinehurst basically.

Simon Holt
 0:58:43
 Okay, so David is never going back to Pinehurst. I'll go back. I'm joking. What other golf courses are hosting majors this year? I am there's true and obviously is doing the open of course June. So let's talk about true David's can we just not I

David Davis
 0:58:59
 Think we should so I I am I think June is a great a great test of golf as you know one of the most to me one of the most famous opens is that battle between Stenson and Nicholson Nicholson incredible incredible absolutely Stenson and Mickelson. Incredible. Incredible, absolutely. Honestly, if I'm perfectly honest, it's not my favorite Open course, nowhere near it. However, I will say that I think there's a stretch of five or six great holes and the rest of it are testing holes, but just not my favorite, that's all.

Simon Holt
 0:59:36
 I think that's true. I think it's an incredible championship test, the back nine, perhaps because it's away from the water, and for the most part, you kind of going in the same direction, can seem to blend into one. But if you really pull the holes apart and you sit down and think about them, just an incredible test of golf.

James Henderson
 0:59:54
 That far bend, the kind of, from the poster stamp and the turn is very-

12
 1:00:00
 Absolutely.

Simon Holt
 1:00:01
 Well, because there's changes in directions a wee bit more. So, seven's a cracker, eight's very good, nine, ten, eleven, twelve you come in a slightly different direction.

James Henderson
 1:00:12
 But once you're playing around the Greenkeeper's house, it starts to flatten out and becomes just not the same.

Simon Holt
 1:00:20
 Even the Portland's got more elevation than some of those holes. The Portland, I mean, I don't want to dive away too much in the Championship golf. the Okay, I've not played Valhalla, David, commentary. Pass. Okay, hard pass from David on Valhalla. But there is one golf course that we need to talk about that's going to be on an international

James Henderson
 1:00:58
 stage and it's probably the only time we'll see professionals on a top three on our…

11
 1:01:07
 One of my favourites.

David Davis
 1:01:08
 Royal County Downs is hosting the Irish Open.

James Henderson
 1:01:11
 Oh yes, RCD. You're never going to see pros hitting Cypress Point or Pine Valley. And RCD is number three. And RCD have decided they're going to, just for a bit of fun, I'm pretty sure they just turned up and went, right, we'll do this year.

10
 1:01:31
 Come on.

James Henderson
 1:01:32
 All right, fine.

Simon Holt
 1:01:33
 I'd actually completely forgotten it was having the Irish Open, which is, I'll say this time and time again, one of my favorite courses on the planet as it is with everybody. I think it's in my top five, which as you've joked about before, James has more than five in it. But it's certainly one of my top links courses on the planets, top golf course on the planet, full stop, best condition links, golf course on the planet, fact, as far as I'm concerned, not even a conversation. An interesting one to have a tournament Any sort of tournament other than something like the Walker Cup, which is perfect for so now that that will be interesting to see My my favorite links course, I'm just gonna go on the record by saying your favorite links course where you champion Port Rush earlier I mean, I'll claim RCD is one of my favorites. You said Port Rush earlier. Guess what? It's the only links I have above Port Rush

David Davis
 1:02:24
 Okay links I have above Portrush. So that makes Northern Ireland my favourite links country,

Simon Holt
 1:02:31
 doesn't it?

James Henderson
 1:02:32
 Yeah, well, yeah, that's...

David Davis
 1:02:33
 Oh, no, it doesn't, because you could have 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and... I forgot the company I'm with, yes. I mean, besides Scotland, sorry, my favourite links

9
 1:02:46
 destination besides Scotland.

Simon Holt
 1:02:47
 No, I think it's in England, though. But Royal County Downs are 10 out of 10 golf courses. I'm sure there's gonna be high viewership from the golf geek community that week when the Irish opens at Royal County Downs in Newcastle. And I'm sure a couple of hostelleries there and restaurants are gonna do very well. What an amazing golf course, it's gonna be great to see on TV. Yeah, I'm very excited.

David Davis
 1:03:09
 Out of all the courses being played next year, by a mile my favorite.

Simon Holt
 1:03:12
 It's the best golf course. The tournament we played on this year. Yeah. If arguably televised professional, it's number three in our list and Pine Valley, Pine Valley and Cypress point Cypress points got the Walker cup coming up 25. Yes. So, um, but that is

James Henderson
 1:03:32
 not a professional tournament. So this is the highest rank professional golf tournament on our rankings.

8
 1:03:38
 Yeah.

7
 1:03:39
 Ever.

6
 1:03:39
 And rightly so.

Simon Holt
 1:03:40
 It's an incredible golf course. Which is very exciting.

James Henderson
 1:03:43
 So people need to understand the magnitude of that Irish Open in terms of quality of golf course. Right, gentlemen, I think that's us. I think we need to go have a beer at a bar. And thanks very much for coming on. We've got a good two hours 40 from that bad boy.

Simon Holt
 1:03:58
 Well, thank you for bearing with us, for everybody that's listened all the way to the end, you deserve a hat or a head cover or something.

David Davis
 1:04:07
 Or at least a really solid drink.

James Henderson
 1:04:10
 Right, thank you very much gentlemen and everyone else, thanks very much for listening.

5
 1:04:18
 Cheers.

James Henderson
 1:04:22
 Thanks for listening and as always, you can get in contact with myself, James, at top100golfcourses.com or on our Instagram at officialtop100. And remember, play fast, lunch slow. And remember, play fast, lunch slow.

5
 1:04:36
 you

 
 
 Transcribed with Cockatoo