Episode 20: Jim Rohrstaff - Te Arai Links

In this episode of The Clubhouse, our CEO (Simon Holt) is in New Zealand for a golf trip. He checks in with Jim Rohrstaff, the managing director at Te Arai links, to chat about the incredible visitor experience, their favourite holes and much more. 

The Top100 Clubhouse Podcast is brought to you by Eden Mill: Bringing the art of distilling back to St Andrews, The Home Of Golf. 

Transcript

James Henderson
 0:00:00
 The Top 100 Clubhouse podcast is brought to you by Eden Mill. Bring the tradition of distilling whiskey and gin back to St Andrews, the home of golf. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Top 100 Clubhouse, the ultimate podcast for golf course enthusiasts worldwide. I'm your host, James Henderson, and we're about to embark on a journey through lush fairways and breathtaking landscapes, as well as delving deep into the minds of fascinating individuals from every corner of the golfing universe. Get ready to explore the world's top golf courses through the eyes of those who know them best.

James Henderson
 0:00:51
 This week on the pod, Simon Holt was actually in New Zealand chasing golf. And one of the most special places in New Zealand is TE ARAI. You have two golf courses in TE ARAI, which are the public golf courses and then you've got Tariti.

James Henderson
 0:01:10
 Simon sits down with Jim Rorstaff, who's the managing partner of TE ARAI Links. I hope you enjoy. Okay, everyone, welcome to the Top 100 podcast. I'm taking over from James this week because we're down here in New Zealand with a great group of guys, and we've been chasing around playing golf, and we've ended up at TE ARAI, which is one of my favorite places in the world to play golf, Tarahiti, and the two courses here at TE ARAI.

Simon Holt
 0:01:37
 I'm delighted to be joined by Jim Rostaff, who's the managing partner and Jim welcome. Thank you good to be here at our own place I guess but it's a it's a little bit of a rainy morning and this is a perfect time to do this so that you can go tee it up this afternoon. Yeah

Simon Holt
 0:01:49
 exactly is it right I've been here I've been lucky enough to be here four times now and this is the first time I've experienced wind and rain so you're making me feel like it's back in Scotland albeit still about 15 or 20

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:01:58
 degrees warmer. Yeah yeah it's it's we've had a nice stretch of weather here. It's it's been high 60s to 70 We're in mid-november right now Or late November, I guess but it's it's a nice time of year. It's transitional still but We deal with this occasionally and and it brings out the teeth of Lynx golf, which is fantastic. We love it

Simon Holt
 0:02:18
 Yeah, well, we'll get onto that later and a bit more about how those courses are Maybe with that built with that in mind but to start with and this is what James does with all our guests our usual host but tell me about your golfing background how you got into golf and then they'll hopefully naturally flow

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:02:35
 into to Terry TNT RI yeah great so I started playing golf when I was 15 and I didn't really have a golf family me my direct family we were a very very athletic family so we we played a lot of sports. Golf is actually the last game that I or sport that I learned to play. But I picked up a club the summer I turned 15 and played in a municipal golf course in Kalamazoo, Michigan and I was hooked immediately. My main sport growing up was soccer and come from a soccer family. I played a lot of tennis and skied and played basketball. Once I started to hit golf balls and actually flush it every once in a while, it's like, wow, there is no feeling better than controlling a golf ball. And I was hooked that first summer and couldn't get enough. So I started playing when I was in my mid-teens. We had a – I call him my Uncle Jack, but it was really my mom's uncle. He was my grandmother's youngest brother. He played on tour for a while, lived in California, owned his own golf course. And so when I went out to see him, it's called Rancho Maria in Santa Maria and Central Coast California. But I remember going out and seeing my uncle Jack and he was like a hero, just seeing a guy own his own golf course and people idolized him and he was a very charismatic good guy you know he was six foot two six foot three hit it really good still played in some senior Open senior British he played quite a few times Wow and you know just a one the California Open you know he was a heck of a player so we had we had some golf on that side of the family but but my parents didn't really play and so we got into it then and like I said I kind of idolized I guess my uncle Jack and he passed about a year ago which was really

Simon Holt
 0:04:35
 sad. Yeah I'm sure, sorry to hear that and then transition through like college, work life and then you're down here in New Zealand so sort of fill the gaps

Simon Holt
 0:04:46
 between. Yeah so not an obvious transition from Kalamazoo, Michigan to New Zealand, but I ended up moving out to Southern California in 1998, and I went to the Golf Academy in San Diego, which was a business, golf business school basically that taught golf management, and so it was very golf-cenTe Araic. And while I was out there, I started working at Rancho Santa Fe Golf Club, which was a 1927 Max Bair design, wonderful, wonderful golf course, home of the original Clambake, which then went up to Pebble Beach, AT&T. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, so a great spot in Rancho Santa Fe, and became really good buddies with a lot of members there, and then there was a new golf course that was opening up just a few miles away in Rancho Santa Fe called The Bridges, and I went over and I was on the original team at the bridges working on the golf side so I was actually working in golf for a period of time thought I wanted to be a club pro for a period of time thought I wanted to play but I definitely was not talented enough to do that and fortunately I realized that pretty quick but open up the bridges in 99 and then open up another club in in Rancho Santa Fe called Santa Luz which is a Reese Jones design just a few miles away, a month after 9-11. And when I started working at Santa Luz, I was the first assistant under a director of golf that came from Oakmont named James Swift. So he worked under Bob Ford, which I know you just recently had on, came out of the Bob Ford factory. Yeah, like a lot of the good ones. Like a lot of the great ones, yeah, absolutely. So I worked for Swifty and That was a that was a project that was done by DMB who is a developer out of Scottsdale, Arizona They developed things like silver leaf Forest Highlands and in Flagstaff Lahontan and in Lake Tahoe Martis camp and Kukui Ula and and Glenwyle and Park City a lot of a lot of great courses and private communities in the West Coast so as I was working for DMB, I started to quickly realize that maybe golf wasn't for me, but I liked still being around the golf business. And so I ended up getting into the sales business with DMB and getting into the real estate development side of the business and the planning side and selling side and how do you build a club? How do you build a community? So I just naturally transitioned into that role and then did several projects with them. And then in 2007 went out on my own and met Rick in 20, I don't know, 2010 or 2011 at a place in the desert called the Vintage Club. And we became fast friends and he invited me to come down here in 2011-2012 to look at this piece of property he was looking at in New Zealand and came down with him. It was still a pine forest at the time and all on sand and you could see this is a wonderful piece of property and Rick had very, very big dreams and aspirations of what it could be and he had never developed anything like this before. So he was really trying to pull people in that he knew, trusted, had experience and could help make his dream become a reality.

Simon Holt
 0:08:08
 So just for the background for the listeners, when we say Rick, we're talking about Rick

Simon Holt
 0:08:12
 Kane.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:08:13
 Oh, sorry.

Simon Holt
 0:08:14
 Yes, Rick Kane. Yeah, well, you know very, very well. I'm fortunate enough to have met him quite a few times in the last 10 years or so. Obviously, great man, highly successful in finance. He's come down here, found this parcel of land, which we now know is charity which i've been on record a million times and it is my favorite place on the planet and it just gets incredible and time after time after time it gets better and better and better but let's talk about the genesis of that and you and rick being down here knowing you had this wonderful piece of land and tom duke yes so rick

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:08:47
 rick always likes to say you know when when he was going to build his own golf course here, he had three architects on his list. Number one was Tom Doak, number two was Tom Doak, and number three was Tom Doak. So there was only one architect that he decided he wanted to use and that was Tom. And so he brought Tom down actually to see another property prior to Territi that didn't work out. Tom spent several hours on the ground in New Zealand looking at this property and said, Rick, I could build you six of the best holes in golf and 12 of the worst. This land is definitely not fit for a golf course. So Rick at that time actually thought the dream was kind of over and then actually a Rick basically to his home office in LA sent him a package on the New Zealand land deal, a developer here named John Darby. And then Rick got this piece of land, came and looked at it and brought Tom down. And Tom spent four days with, I think on that first Te Araip it was Brian Schneider, walking through the forest. And they came out four days later with a routing and two big thumbs up and a smile on their face saying, we've got a good one here. And Rick's direction to them at the time was, hey, if we can't do something that's top 50 in the world worthy on this piece of property, let's not waste our time. So he told them right away, we expect something very bold, very great on this land, and they definitely executed.

Simon Holt
 0:10:21
 Yeah, and I've read that before. I think Tom, obviously, is a great poster on Gulf Cobalt. So I think even recently he put something about there was a client that once asked me this and I sort of joined the dots and assumed it was Rick down here knowing Rick's personality but also how great the site was and obviously objective achieved it's just got better and better and better so I think it debuted in something like the 30s or

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:10:43
 maybe even 29. Yeah it was it was around 29 and I think that the the latest I think has it at 20 now. 20, yeah.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:10:51
 Which is incredible.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:10:52
 It's just continue to kind of move up the charts. You know, it's interesting, you know, some people will talk about with all the rankings, what I love about rankings is they spark debate, they spark conversations, and you know, nobody's right or wrong, it's what do you like better than what do I like, and let's talk about why. And it's really interesting, I think there's, there are a couple of modern courses that are really, really highly rated. You look at Sandhills, you look at Pacific Dunes, you look at Terry E.T. Fryer's Head. Those are to me the first four that just jump out as probably the highest rated. But I think that when they have history on their side, they'll be thought of with some of the other great courses that are in that top 10 part of the list. So I think time will help move them up the list, but traditions do mean a lot in the game of golf as they

Simon Holt
 0:11:41
 should. Yeah, but I think as well that someone like Tarahiti and again the first time I was looking at the first time you and I met was 2016 at the Renaissance Cup where Tom invites his kind of industry friends around to come to one of his new courses and obviously to get us all on a point in New Zealand that had to be pretty compelling especially from Scotland and how glad we all were that we came and I think unanimously and there's a little bit of group thing. We're all there. We're all dokies and we're all caught up in the buzz of the beauty of the place, but it's like, okay, take a cold shower, go out there, play it again, and really realize that this is one of the truly great golf courses on the planet and for it to continue to rise, I think really underlines that people were hopefully right the first time when people came and said, no, no, I'm going to put my neck on the line. This is that good. It doesn't matter this in you go of course it is that good and it will stand the test of time

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:12:30
 yeah and a you know a guy on the on the panel luke reese who first time he came out and saw it we we bumped into each other after his first round and and he came off and he just I remember he said to me said I'm not a hundred percent sure if I just saw what I think I saw but that was you know there was that was exceptional and maybe the best golf course I've ever played I said wow that's that's a pretty big bold statement from somebody who's played everywhere and loves links golf and yeah and and so comments like that from people that have seen it all is you know it's it were we smile every time we hear somebody that comes and enjoys our place

Simon Holt
 0:13:05
 so it's it's great and and talk is this correct me if I'm wrong on this did you tell me once that the first hole that Tom's have cut out the trees was 17 and said okay this is kind of what we're

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:13:16
 going to go for here. Yeah, actually the gentleman I referenced earlier, John Darby, he cut about a, I don't know if it was 5 or 10 yards wide, this little swath of trees out so that we could see there was an ocean and the Hennenshick Islands and sail rock. So and that is roughly where the 17th sits today. So yeah, that was the first little clearing just to say yeah there is a there is an ocean outside of this thick forest and I mean there was gorse all over the it was nasty I don't know I still don't I've seen him do it multiple times now but I still don't understand how Tom you know reads a topography map and and has the the vision to actually see truly within a forest because we hadn't cleared anything he routed a golf course just from walking through a forest for days it's not a direct path, not a direct line of sight. It's pretty incredible.

Simon Holt
 0:14:08
 I've joked around before, I've said this like three or four times, people are getting bored of me saying it now, but he's almost like Neo in the MaTe Araix with the way he sees a topo map. I've asked him before, what do you think separates you from your peers? Is there one particular part that you're great at? Is it sitting on a machine? Is it doing this? Is it doing that? It's the routing.

Simon Holt
 0:14:26
 He said the routing. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more than also as you and I have discussed off mic and he seems to have this uncanny ability of finding great talent through his internship program amongst other things and the likes of people that I've met through charity you know Clyde Johnson Angela Moser that are now going off and lead in their own projects for Tom O'Brien Schneider the event Brian Brian Slonick who actually was the the lead associate on on both of these building, both the Territi and the North Course. Brian was on the ground here, Brian Slonick, and he's a very, very talented guy. It's amazing to watch. So, to me, Tom moves at lightning speed, and I'm guessing we'll talk about this, but Cork Crenshaw, Bill is a plotter. He moves a little bit slower. He likes to really contemplate and think things through, where Tom, I feel like, he's just, okay, I see it, this is what it is, this is what it needs to be. Sometimes he changes once they start moving ground, but he sees it lightning fast. But to see him go in, and during the North Course construction, they were standing in front of the fourth green, we were about 130 yards out, and Tom just starts speaking to me gibberish to Brian Slonick and kind of mumbling about things and pointing and you know it's got to be like this over here and just you know like so-and-so at this course and you know that hump that they have there and yeah and and it was a 30-second interaction and Brian Slonick's just like yep got it and then Tom walks away and Brian goes and builds it yeah and it's just unbelievable though the they've worked together so long. The way they can work off of one another is really, really incredible. And I think as Tom does work with his team, and obviously Tom's name is the one that's always talked about, but there's a supporting cast there that's unbelievably talented. That now you're seeing more and more credit. You know, Angela, who was on the ground for the North Course, Clyde, who was on the ground for the North Course. Their names are becoming known, and that's fantastic for them too.

Simon Holt
 0:16:28
 Absolutely, so let's go back to the vision we talked about Taraheit and the vision there was to have it you know to be this sort of golf course and as well you talk a lot about community in the club and I know you've done very very well again for a club the the geographical location to get all these avid golfers from around the world to come and join Taraheit is testament not only to the golf course but the club that you've built as well.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:16:51
 What would you say was key to that part? Well, people have probably heard us say a few times, we've got one rule at Terrietty and that's the no asshole rule. So it's a little crass but it's really a principle that stands very true to what we believe. We don't need rules at a place like this. We just want good people around that will come and enjoy and do so without the expense of others. So if you do things that don't negatively impact our staff, your fellow members and guests, God bless you. Go have fun. If you want to play a five ball, if you want to play a six ball, if you want to go do a cross-country golf, that's fine. Just do it and be aware. But we started the club really by Rick and Terry Quinn, who's on the board with us and and There was a small group that in Larry Shakely who is one of the founders as well It was really compiling a list of people inviting 50 friends and then doing nothing and that's that's actually a harder you know strategy to execute than it sounds but what that allowed is is really for us to start with a great base of people and Then allow them to bring their buddies down, share the place, and allow the club to build organically. And that was really the key to the success. We were never trying to sell Territiti. We really were trying to just share the experiences that it offered. And then as the right people came along and exposed themselves to the club, and they were a right fit, and they liked us, we liked them, then we'd invite them to join the club and and that's how we've built teriyaki over the last You know it's been open now for eight years, but for the last ten years That's that's really how we built the membership, and and I think it's one of the strongest memberships in the world It's incredible that the people that are there. They're just you know good people and it's like a family. That's great Yeah

8
 0:18:41
 No

Simon Holt
 0:18:41
 Is we were there for? for lunch two days ago now And we're lucky enough to play in the afternoon with a group of members that we've become good friends with. It's a wonderful thing about our game. You know, it's wonderfully reciprocal. But seeing other members walk in that maybe hadn't been here for a few months. We were with a couple of the Kiwi members. For them to just jump up, go over and give a hug to a couple that have just arrived in from Los Angeles or San Francisco, even though this is a place that is far away, that the members seem to have really formed that bond and become really close friends, which is, again, testament to you guys and the vision and the club itself which is fantastic

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:19:18
 yeah absolutely and it is it really is a it's a place that people come in especially if you're a guest coming for the first time at Terry E.T. all of us do the same thing we go to a place we're super excited about we get nervous we you know we don't want to break any rules we're a little we're a little bit on edge until we kind of figure out what the deal is and and it's a place that I think people are immediately disarmed because they're greeted with a big smile and a wave and a handshake or a hug. And people feel that and it immediately makes you feel very comfortable and at home. And it's like a family reunion when people are coming into town. This time of year, from now until April, it's like I need a little bit of a liver job by May, June, because everybody comes in wanting to hang out and screw around and play golf and have a cocktail or two. So it's a fun place like that.

Simon Holt
 0:20:09
 Yeah, that's amazing. But then we move to, so, you know, Tara Eaty's established, wonderful success, and now we're sat here in this incredible cottage here at TE ARAI with two incredible golf courses. The South Course just debuted in the World Top 100 in Golf Magazine. Having played the North Coast now twice in the last two days, and someone who Phil is fairly well-traveled, I would say that that is almost a lock as well. But talk about the vision for TE ARAI, because totally different proposition from Tara Iti.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:20:41
 Yeah, so, you know, Tara Iti is a, you know, it's a small private club, and that's great, we absolutely love that. But we were also excited to share the coastline so this was our this is our opportunity here to really create some great golf and you know everybody everybody knows bandon dunes and the kaiser's what really Mike Kaiser at the at the time the boys were very very young when when Mike stepped out and did bandon dunes but he showed that remote great links golf works and people will travel and and you know so when we started looking at what to do next, we looked at this piece of property and thought, well, we've easily got enough room to do 36 holes. We would love to share it, so let's build it as a resort style.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:21:26
 Two golf courses, two great architects.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:21:28
 We immediately went to Bill and Ben, and they got the first choice of the land, which Tom- I'm sure that went down well with Tom. Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, I did make a map one time that actually whited out all of the coastline that Bill and Ben had and just left the balance for Tom to figure out where his course could go and he's like, where's the rest of the coastline? And so Bill likes to say that he gave Tom you know, five, six hundred meters back of coastline, but Bill's golf course here, Bill and Ben on the South course, you know, this has about as much coastline as any golf course in the world. That's incredible. Yeah. But really, the model here was, hey, let's share this with the world. We've also created a club here, and we've got a really, I think, an interesting model where we actually toggle back and forth the two courses every day, which is for our members and which is for hotel guests, greens fee players. So there's a golf course open every single day for a greens fee player, and our members have a private course every single day. So it's an interesting model that I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen it more, but it's been a year and a bit in and we're finding it to be very successful so far.

Simon Holt
 0:22:37
 Yeah, I know. It's interesting. So just to underline that, there's the North and the South, the North being the DOAT course, the South being called Crenshaw, which opened last year, the DOAT course opened in the last month. So on one day, so today for example, the North course is open to pay and play, and the South course is reserved exclusively for members, and then tomorrow, that's what flops.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:22:56
 Yes, correct. And our members can actually play either course any day, so that's one of the benefits of being a member. But yeah, we've got one course dedicated every day to the public.

Simon Holt
 0:23:06
 Yeah. And then now we can sort of dive a bit more into working with you don't ban and working with with renaissance golf design tom does seem

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:23:20
 well it's interesting they're both uh... as i alluded to earlier different

6
 0:23:24
 person

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:23:24
 different personalities you know then uh... and and bill you know they uh... they also are are fabulous routers of a golf course you know that that i think the pacing the rhythm of of the south course is fantastic the way they work you into it, it's a generous par five to start going up the hill, you know, massive landing area. And then number two is a bit of a punch, and then it starts to build, and you get to that fourth tee box, and the sky opens up. The big reveal, yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, it's just unreal. And I just love, I try to actually walk off of three green faster than anybody in my group when I've got guests or somebody that hasn't been here before and I try to march up the hill as fast as I can. I just like to turn around and watch their faces as they come up that hill and they look to the right and they just go, oh my, every time, you know, they just freak out. And it's a fun tee shot. It's a parachute tee shot. You know, you hit it down the hill and then it cascades hard right as it runs down those slopes. But I think, you know, with Bill, we owe him a lot of gratitude. He came out here during COVID. He made four Te Araips, I believe, where he had to spend two weeks in an isolated hotel room during the MIQ time here in New Zealand where the borders were closed. We actually fought for three, four months to get a special exemption to allow Bill to come into the country wow but each time you know he was 74 I think during construction and he came out and he spent two months of his life locked in a hotel room in order to spend another probably 10 weeks on the ground over two months locked in a hotel yes that's what that's four times two weeks each time okay yes so not not two months consecutively, but every time he came two weeks in a hotel room, locked in a hotel room, then comes out, spends two, three weeks on the ground, then leaves, comes back a couple months later and does it again. So we've got this debt of gratitude to Bill for making that sacrifice. At his age, he doesn't need to do that. At his stage in his career, he doesn't need to do that. But he saw this, I think, as a really special opportunity to create a great one And and we're we're so so grateful to him. Yeah

Simon Holt
 0:25:45
 and then The difference I suppose between the two courses architecturally when I first played the South last year this time last year You know you greeted with these these big wide generous fairways, which on a day like today that's blowing an absolute hoolie outside You see you need it you need to get and really interesting to agree to let you see the floor around just that the the cadence and the up-and-down and you know that the the accents i would call them i while look at this but then you can't keep up a separate single hold all be at this causes a an excellent job of that then the middle of the back nine for me is like that all-star golf when it's just like truly unique holes, you haven't seen them before, a good sTe Araing of short par 4s, that middle part of that back 9 to me, but talk to me about your favorite holes on South.

James Henderson
 0:26:43
 Why not try Eden Mill's The Guard Bridge blended malt whiskey or golf gin? Visit our sponsor's site www.edenmill.com for more information. Eden Mill, St. Andrews, bringing the art of distilling

James Henderson
 0:26:55
 back to St. Andrews.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:26:56
 Oh gosh, kind of like your favorite kid, I think there are so many good stretches on the south.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:27:03
 I love the start, I love 456 on the middle of the front nine is fantastic. That's the big downhill sweeping par four. That's maybe 490 from the championship tees, but it doesn't play that long because it runs down the hill. Five is a stunning par three along the stream with the ocean and the islands in the background. And then six is a pretty wild tee shot over a blind dune with a bunker. So I love 4-5-6 and I'm with you. I think 13-14, 15-16, 17 are just incredible. 18 is a good finisher. But that middle of the back nine, as you alluded to, there's some real scoring opportunities. So you can definitely make some birdies out there. 14 I think is just an incredible short par 4 that's drivable unless it's into the wind. And then, you know yesterday I actually played and it was it was a strange wind where 14 was dead into and it's the first time in all my rounds There that I didn't hit driver because I knew there was no chance and then the risk elements You know far outweighed any reward of hitting driver So I laid it back for the first time ever and hit a full wedge into it And you know it's a it's a good little par four so I like that same stretch in the middle of the back nine

Simon Holt
 0:28:23
 And then moving on to the North Coast, obviously freshly opened and my first takeaway, the first time around a couple of mornings ago was just how much short grass there was and the sheer scale of the place. So away from the water, framed by these pine trees that were built, you know, sorry, built, planted, what, 30, 40 years ago? So it was a pine forest, you know, that was built for commercial reasons, I guess, and then, but it flows around, there's big elevation changes, there's blind shots in there, but I suppose the thing that appeals some people's eyes back is the greens are wild.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:29:01
 Yeah, yeah, bold greens, I would say, on the North Course. Tom definitely turned up the volume a little bit, and it's fantastic. Turned up the volume? Turned up the volume. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It bursts your eardrums on a few of those. I think it's great to see what he and Brian Slonick and Angela Moser and Clyde Johnson did out there. They took some chances, I think, and the boldness of some of those interior holes are just out of this world. His first time visiting, there were these sandy blowout areas that he immediately just said gosh this this looks so much like Pine Valley to me the the big Movements the bold movements these sandy blowout areas the pine trees So he took I think a little bit of inspiration It's nothing like Pine Valley But you know he he kind of took those inspirations and and I think the holes that are on the inland side They're probably seven or eight depending on how you measure at coastal holes and ten or eleven on the inland. But there's some pretty wild stuff there that I think is just so much fun. Oh, that's great. I love it. And the scale of it, as you said, there are some corridors, there's a valley of 11 to 15 where it's just big. You just see golf, and that's all you see, and it's surrounded by forest, and it's wild, and tons of movement, you know, just rolling. Great golf land. So I think they knocked it out of the park I think he was at the front end I think he was a little you know like gosh bill took all the coast and then once he got back there he said did bill even see this land this stuff is so good back here so I think he went from I got gypped on the coast to oh I love where I got so he loved the land and I think he executed really well well I think the the greatest compliment you can pay to someone is that it doesn't feel like anything else and the North Coast to me doesn't feel like anything else that I've played. The routing is fantastic, it keeps you guessing, you never know what's coming next but at the same time the right hole comes next if that makes sense. In that sense the balance and the flow of the round is exceptional, the greens, while some of them are like on first inspection of bonkers, like there's so much fun and you that there with a great caddy like I was with Sam. He's like, no, no, hit it over here and you would never think of it. It's like, wow, how much fun is that? And this place is they can tuck pins that are going to be perplexing and others that are fair. And as long as you get that balance right, you know, I think it's wonderful. Yeah, if we if we wanted to, we could make that golf course very very hard just pin positions would be would be the way to challenge you because there's there's some some corridors there that unless you know exactly where to hit it and especially

Simon Holt
 0:31:47
 where not to hit it that that challenge the best players absolutely and then it was cool to see Brian Palmer that he oversees everything we'll get on to that in a second and all the agronomy here on all three courses I believe and he took a walk with us for like four or five holes, and it was so cool to be out there with him and Nick and The superintendent from North and he said oh Simon. You know you're gonna enjoy this next hole What does this look like? I was like is this like a riff on an Eden hole he's like yeah absolutely Which which was nice to see that little duff of the cap To one of the absolute classics and it fits the land perfectly not conTe Araived in any way And then they have a huge pocket up to the left as well that you don't see when when you first play from

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:32:27
 the tee but that greens enormous. Yes huge huge yeah I think that that stretch I don't know if you've got a favorite hole on and this is a segue but I don't know if you've got a favorite hole on that north course yet but there are a few in particular that stand out to me and in that back valley 13 I think is is one of the coolest holes I've ever played. It's a blind tee shot over the hill where there's a reverse camber against the dogleg. So it's a dogleg left to right, but the slope all moves the ball right to left, so you really want to hug the right side off the tee to get the most distance. But then you've got a long uphill shot to a almost biritzi green. It is a little bit of a biritzi green. Yeah, it's got a kind of a diagonal biritz that runs and it's 65 yards long so I mean that that's a hole that can you know you can have seven iron into it and I've hit three wood short of it quite a few times if it's into the wind but yeah I think I think Tom Tom and his crew did a did an incredible job on the on the green complexes there are some wild ones Tom actually shaped some greens for the first time in I forget how many years he said but he shaped for he shaped seven so any any complaints and I'll send you Tom's email address or phone number and you can text him

Simon Holt
 0:33:42
 Yeah, no, he loves it when that yeah, absolutely absolutely You just asked for favorite holes. I do have like a handful of favorite holes around there and Handful of favorite greens as well like you know six green is really cool Four is really cool. Three is really cool But I always say that I think the toughest holes to design and the toughest holes to keep golfers' interests are par-fives. We went through that horrible period of the 90s and the early 2000s where hard golf was seen as good golf and the boring, homogenous par-fives, whereas holes like 11 here at North, an amazing par-five.

Simon Holt
 0:34:21
 And that was actually the first hole they built. So that's where they started. So it was something that we freaked out a little bit because when he built that hole, the scale of it was so huge. We're looking at our budget, first of all. We're looking at the amount of water it's going to take. We're looking at sprinkler head counts. And we're going, that was the biggest hole on the entire complex of three courses here. So that was the first hole they built. And we said, Tom, are you going to do this to us? The hole?

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:34:49
 We're going to need more land.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:34:50
 Yeah, we're going to need more land to build those golf courses. This thing is massive. Yeah. And it's super... I think it's... The topography on 11, there is so much up and down movement, and then that massive blowout bunker on the right, just short of the green, that's... I don't even know how deep that is, but it's probably 18 feet below the surface. Yeah, I was down there yesterday.

Simon Holt
 0:35:12
 It's deep.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:35:13
 Okay, so I've only seen one person hit it in there, and it's well. It's it's it's very very Brutal, but that was that was there that was just part of the landscape so they didn't manufacture that it was just something they Discovered along along the way and it's it's incredible. It's such a good feature, and it's a bold feature

Simon Holt
 0:35:27
 Oh, yeah, yeah, but then off the back of that green you then have this beautiful transition down to a really cool part three and the theme that, and this is on South as well, but especially on North, because of the size of the place, like the just short grass everywhere, and these like cool short grass transitions just bleeding off the back of greens into next teas. I mean, even the 18th green flows into the putting green, which, you know, we've seen a few places now around the world. But talk to me about the conditions of these courses relative to taro eating at this stage in its life cycle, and maybe kind of lessons learned on the agronomy side because they're in exceptional condition already a year or two in.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:36:07
 Yeah thanks, you know I think that's all due to you know our grow-in superintendent by the way and our build superintendent was CJ Krucher who's now at Punta Brava in Mexico which was actually a project I was involved in back in 2007-8 when Tiger had done the routing there and we pulled the pin in early 2009 and did not do the project. So it's really interesting that now he is there, Tom is there, but anyways they did a wonderful job. We learned in the early days at Territi, so we had fine, I won't get too deep into the grass stuff, but we did fine fescue at Territi and anytime you get a seed there's mixtures in there. So there are a few varieties, but it was fine fescue. Then we came down to build tiare lengths and we went with hard fescue, which was a little more disease tolerant, a little more drought tolerant, a little hardier grasses, the name states, a little wider leaf. And then we went for a much higher seed count in our hydro seed, just to make sure we got great coverage day one. Teriyaki was really, really thin for the first two or three years. And so we learned that lesson. We said, okay, well, we've got to go more aggressive with more seed, which costs more money. But the end product on day one is far superior. And I think that's a big takeaway for people that come see this place for the first time and it's a brand new golf course. I had a couple of guys from OCM, Mike Hocking and Ashley Mead over just a couple weeks ago and they had never been to the complex and wanted to see it so I was walking around with them and they said this is the best Fescue we've seen in the world and we're Fescue Tee to Green and it's done really really well. You know we're at the warmer side of what Fescue can tolerate. Yeah. Terra ET is the closest golf course in the world to the equator with Fescue Tee to Green. I did not know that. North Course is now number two and south course is now number

Simon Holt
 0:38:04
 three and I think they'll stay that way for a while. But you can putt from so far off the green and that's what you and I again we talked about this at lunch yesterday for the lower handicapped golfer you're off the side of a green, there's like a big runoff and you're not in a bunker you're on short grass and you're there thinking do I putt this, do a little bump and run do try and sort of nip a little 56, which is a tough shot super tight turf yep and whereas the the higher handicapped golfer would prefer not to be in a bunker and he's got a putter in his hand straight away he can play that shot which

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:38:36
 is fantastic because it works for all of us well and I think that's that's a sign of great architecture when an architect can help guide a you know 15-18 handicap around the golf course and not punish them and kind of help them make easy bogeys sometimes if that makes sense and then the really good player that's out chasing birdies and easy pars, when they take on tough lines, two on the south course is a perfect example, dogleg right, kind of a reverse k-pole, waist area all up the right-hand side. So obviously if you challenge that right side, you're taking into account a bit of risk with the waist area. If you play it out to the left off the tee it's a much easier tee shot but then everything works away from you into a grassy hollow on the right side of the green which is not a good place to be. You're you know a meter and a half or five feet below the surface into that position that you just talked about where you know I'm below the surface what do I what do I do here I've got I can hit any club in the bag but for a good player it's not easy to get it to 3-4 feet and for an average player it's really easy to get it to 12 to 15 feet to putt from there make bogey go to the next they're happy you know a good players frustrated because they're trying to you know get up and down make birdies and and I think they've done that really well to challenge the the better players and and to make it up an

Simon Holt
 0:39:55
 enjoyable round for the average player. Absolutely and then just to finish on the courses, again I was lucky enough to play Tahiti the other day for, as you know, been down maybe four or five years, and the progression of the golf course is excellent on the conditioning side and the quality of the turf, and the holes have always been brilliant, it's always been one of my favorite courses in the world. But what's been interesting now is seeing how the weather's taken its toll on the sandblasting things. Those are gnarly. If you miss, like I told you, a miss left on 14, and that didn't used to be as deep as it was. It's maybe a meter deep, it's now three meters deep. And there's other places on the course where that's happened. So I suppose two questions there. How do you combat that, if at all? And when you asked me this off mic yesterday when we were having lunch, you mentioned about notes that you've got, especially from Cool Crenshaw, and also Tom going forward, so I don't know, open forum on what you've got.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:40:54
 Yeah, absolutely, well, I'd say that, you know, we have a lot of compliments we can't give enough to, to Brian Palmer, who you mentioned earlier. BP came from Shore Acres, he was the, he was the superintendent at Shore Acres, and prior to that he had some experience at Marion, and you know, he's got great pedigree. He's an unbelievable guy Great superintendent, so he's got these three golf courses in fabulous shape and getting better by the day I mean you've seen the progression at Terry E.T It gets better and better and better every single season part of that is the maturing process But I think his techniques what he does what he's learned He applies really well. So on the Some of the changes, you know, it's really a Tom Doak and mother nature design golf course. You've got a lot of erosion that happens in these these big waste areas where This last summer we didn't have much of a summer. We had Easterlies blowing in big storms So we had we had more rainfall than we've ever had in a year So it set all sorts of records with that we had Easterlies which usually are the the biggest wind Yeah, so we got exposed on some bunkers, some waste areas that just continually would blow out. Back right of 13 at Terrietty is one that we just had to address about four or five months ago where it just kept dumping sand onto the back of 13 green. And then what happens is as it continues to blow sand out, the edges get more exposed. So then turf starts to fall into the bunker and you get that erosion problem. So that was a discussion with Tom that Brian had had, ended up grassing in most of it, keeping one portion of the bunker. So now if you miss there, the ball collects down on the turf, but it's a miserable shot. You're now hitting three meters up to the green. So it's just as hard as if it were sand. It's just different options. And now from a maintenance standpoint It's gonna be more palatable for the guys to take care of and and we won't have those erosion problems But you know, we've had that on on six. We've had it on 13 as I just mentioned 14 as you've seen We've had to add stairs into a couple of waste areas Yes They they used to be you know a foot or two below the surface and now they're six feet below the surface or four feet Below the surface. So they're constantly Evolving and I think that's what's really interesting with with this style of golf is we're not trying to cure everything today We're reacting with Mother Nature and there are some things that we look at as preventative, but a lot of it is reactionary But we're starting to see Little areas where we say okay? Well this bunker will likely get blown out over time But we're not going to do anything until then and we'll just keep an eye on it And how do we want to treat that in the future and as you alluded to I spent a bit of time with Bill at the end of construction when the golf course was built looking at a few areas saying okay well in time based on what's happened at Territi these are some things that could happen. What's your reaction to that? How would you like this treated in the future? If we find this unplayable at some point what would you like to do? Just to future proof us. So I've got some notes from Bill. He's very old school. And yellow paper lined with his cursive, beautiful penmanship, just notes and notes and notes. So I've got pages of that sitting in my office in a drawer. And it's really neat, just historical data to keep. And I've actually got from Bill as well in his time in quarantine where he was staying in these hotels and he would use the hotel paper, their letterhead, and he would draw concepts of holes and then hand them to me at the end. So I've actually got these really cool drawings that we've got to put together a binder and a book with all of this and scan it all in. But it's incredible just having these things and it's got the Crowne Plaza Hotel on it and it's where he stayed in MIQ. But it's really interesting all these different things that we've collected over the years with him. With Tom, they're pretty active still in this part of the world. Of course, he did Cape Kidnappers, and then they've got some projects over in Australia. So Brian Slonick is doing a bit of work over there, so he'll stop by usually when he's passing through and just check on the courses, and if there's something we need to talk about maintenance-wise, we'll cast our eye over it. So we'll never do anything without their buy-in and, hey, does this make sense? Sometimes they, through photos, videos, and an email, will go, yep, I get that, and yeah, we should definitely do this, or let's hang on, we want to come down, we want to check

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:45:34
 it out, and let's walk and talk and sort it out so where does the bidding starts on these notes from bill core because that's kind of like that's so amazing that's like a McKenzie back in the day scribbling down and you have in the originals that's really excited

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:45:48
 for someone like me that's a massive golf geek me to me oh me too I mean I I keep those things close and I've only taken them out and showed them to a few people but it's it's really really neat to have and another thing that I don't think many people know that we've done except those involved here is we about four years ago when we were starting a project or starting to really dive deep into the planning of the project, Rick and I talked about okay we'll probably do a book for this but you know wouldn't it have been really cool to watch a movie on the making of Cyprus on the making of Pebble on the making of any of these places. So we've actually been shooting a documentary for the last four years on the making of T.R.I. Links. Wow! Netflix? Probably not. I'm not sure. Reuben, who has done this for us, is a fantastic filmmaker. He does documentaries here in New Zealand and he just said the other day he's got the first rough cut and it's about 85 minutes long which is maybe a little longer than we were thinking but but I think I think it's gonna be really neat and you know Rick's idea for that was you know it'd be great for his great-grandkids to know his personality what he was up to why he did this and and not just hear about it from someone but to actually see him talking through and and so we we've had Ruben come out over the years you know capturing you know John Hawker and Riley Johns who are the shapers for Korn Crenshaw and Bill out here, and then all of Tom's crew and seeing the buildings get built and just seeing all the issues along the way, the opening day, all of these fun things that we're now capturing and we've got. So I haven't seen any of it yet. He sent a couple little two-minute segments and we've got them on the website. But it's going to be really neat to actually see all that strung together. I don't know that anybody will sit down for an hour and a half and watch that. But for us, we're golf geeks, too. We absolutely can't get enough of it. And I thought, gosh, that would be fascinating to see, not for me, but I'm talking for watching another place get built. I don't really want to watch myself, but I can't wait to be able to share that with some friends that I know will really eat it up. Absolutely. Well I'm really glad we got to that topic of conversation about this, especially about the notes and then the documentary as well. That's exciting. I can't wait to see some of those things. Okay, well I'm always told to keep to time. We've done about 45 minutes. So James usually finishes with a fun little thing that we call top five and he jokes and teases me he asked me for a top five I gave him 13 but some people it's more of a kind of a state of mind rather than explicit one two three four five but some people have given us three for example but what would you say around the world your top five golf courses are is that top five top five enjoyable yeah okay okay so that's best yeah so favorite golf courses look I'll I'll try not to throw our three right here into it, but they would probably be near the list or definitely on the list. I put National Golf Links of America up there. I put St. Andrews the old course. I put North Berwick. I put Cypress. I would put actually my home course back in Kalamazoo, Michigan because I just love going back there. It's the only place I go and play golf for a steady amount of time in July where I'm not looking and taking pictures of things and texting our superintendent or general manager or director of golf. I'm just a member that pays dues and I love showing up there and just having a great time with guys. But you know as far as golf courses go, yeah I think North Berwick and the old course and National Golf Links of America and Cyprus and Territi and you know, there are so many greats, but those are some pretty fun ones. But I think at Territi and here at TE ARAI Links, what pushes these over the top for me is the fun factor and these are relaxed places that you actually do hang out. It's not just play golf, have this kind of a lunch and then get off property. Here we hang out. And so that relaxation and the ability to come and just enjoy you know whether you're a member here or guest here is I think second to none.

Simon Holt
 0:50:09
 What's interesting all the courses you just mentioned there are exactly that they're very old versions of that and you know we're almost going back to the future the last 20 years with this minimalist movement from Corcoran or Doke which was kind of ignited really at Sand Hills but also packed dunes and places that Tom's done and but the likes of a national North American all course are all about with all about angles all about fun those courses don't beat you up and they're quirky yeah and I love that which is all it clearly influenced you and I know for a fact has influenced Tom and and Bill core and Ben on the things that they like in golf too so it's

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:50:45
 interesting how it comes full circle and absolutely absolutely and I do love Bannon by the way. I mean, Bannon, going to Bannon, Sand Valley, I think the Kaiser family have done a wonderful job there, and those are also pretty tough to beat.

Simon Holt
 0:50:58
 No, for sure. So then, I suppose, most specific to Tahiti and the two courses here, North and South, what are your handful, your favorite holes on the three courses? So you can do a couple from each course, or the ones that really stand out across all three

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:51:15
 yeah this is very difficult to have that that is very challenging you know i don't know if you've ever played the game golf course match play have you ever done this so we we we we love i mean we love going okay let's get it do terry divers you fill in the blank number one who wins number two who wins it's it's a very fun game to play over a couple of tequilas but uh... i would say uh... caches i would go through that i've never done that actually with our three courses here side-by-side. But I think one on the north course, a drivable par-4, I don't know how many places in the world I've played that there's an opener that's a drivable par-4. Looking at waves crashing right behind the green is a pretty fun way to start a round of golf. So I absolutely love the opener on the north. I think that closing hole at Terry ET 18 I think is one that doesn't get talked about a lot but I think it's a fantastic finisher. 17 at Terry E.T. the little par 3 that we like to call pucker because it was the only design note that Rick ever gave Tom Doak on that is, Tom, you know, we like to play match play and you know if a match is coming down to 17 we think that you know you should stand on that tee and kind of pucker up a little bit. You know the match is on the line so Tom Tom actually went out there and sat for a long time looking at it and And and and actually made it more severe some of the green features as well as some of the bunkers Visually to just give you a little bit more to worry about But 17 a Terry T's fantastic. I love 14 at Terry T Which is a big par 4 down the hill. I think it's one of the more stunning goal shots you can hit and the setting is spectacular. I mean we talked about this middle of the back nine on the south course 14, 16 is incredible. The 17 is a you know 120 yard from the championship tee par 3 with a almost a snake-like green that's really narrow. The widest part is 15 meters wide, narrowest is about 9 With some nasty bunkers around it. So look I could I could go on I'm gonna name that has to be in there if you if you give me time, I'm gonna name 54. Oh, yeah You've done my favorite here So what you should do when you go away and we'll maybe do this tonight over some beers or a glass of wine or something Is we'll come up with like an eclectic 18. Yeah, that'll be fun. Like what's the best first hole of the three courses? What's the best second hole and go through

Simon Holt
 0:53:37
 and that would be a brilliant exercise.

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:53:39
 And actually we should do that with a group of guys and everybody write down their answers blind and then debate and argue about who's right and who's wrong. This is fun. And who built the best course.

Simon Holt
 0:53:49
 Well, yeah, that would be an even more

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:53:51
 intense conversation. Yeah, that's right.

Simon Holt
 0:53:54
 Okay, well, I think we're gonna wrap up there. That was amazing, I could speak to you all day. We've not only had this conversation now, but many times and every time I find out something new so thank you so much for giving your time thank you so much for building this incredible place and yeah for anyone that's listening you need to get down here to see these public courses if you get lucky you can get over to see Taraheitya I think it's one of the best course in the world but there's two here

Jim Rohrstaff 
 0:54:19
 that gives it a good run for its money as well. Yeah well thanks thanks for having me Simon it's fantastic I could talk to you all day as well and yeah everyone please come on down it's it's pretty incredible we welcome with open arms and enjoy the playground which is our two and a half acre putting green that wraps around our casual restaurant with a couple of drinks and and that's a bit of fun too

James Henderson
 0:54:38
 so everybody come on down we can't wait to have you. Good stuff. Thanks a lot Jim. Thanks Simon. Jim thank you very much I know Simon waxes so lyrically about that area of the world and hopefully one day I'll come and see you. If you want to get in contact, it's James at top100golfcourses.com. Even if you just want to ask a question about something, just feel free. I'm always keen to hear from you guys. I'm always keen to hear from you guys. Just one last thing, remember, play fast, lunch slow.

 
 
 Transcribed with Cockatoo